If you own an apartment complex and you rent some apartments to people who look like thugs other people won't want to rent there.  Looks are important in this kind of case.  A few tattoos may be thought of as hip in some circles but heavy tattoos are still considered thuggish by most people.

Your damn skippy, I agree with Susan. End of Blog..

Welcome to the new society, one where the younger generation can't wait for our elders to pass on, so they can take with them their prejudices and discriminations.

God I hate this apartment complex. It was much better when it was in the hands of the previous owner (aka Melograno Apartments).

http://www.villasatmedicalcenter.com/

 i thinks it's for the better of S.A. and the better for all those thugs to stay out of S.A. apt..... unless you live on the East side or the West side of town.

 Viva Las Tacos!!!!!

P.S.  ( GET A HAIR CUT, AND GET A REAL JOB!!!!)

I do not agree with Mayor Phil at all, and I will be paying you a visit real soon for an ass kicking session you will not forget you racist pig!! Be afraid Mayor, for some of my peeps will be at your office later today, with long hair and tats, just waiting to meet you!!!

If God wanted us to have tattoos, he would have decorated our skin for us.  I think the culture of "tattoos and piercings" has gone too far.  Bodies covered with way too many tattoos are not attractive!

Am I correct in assuming that the manager accepted the application and the application fee, yet denied the application after accepting the fee based upon the personal appearance clause?

Ok, let me word that a second way, you are telling me they didn't meet the personal appearance clause but the application was accepted anyway?

Bottom line, if the person taking the application knew the rules, and accepted the application and fee, then it is THEFT.  Plain and simple. If they looked alright when the application was accepted, the the appearance must have been OK.  

If I were this couple, I would make this MORE public than it already is and sue the crap out of the appartment.  Accepting the application fee shows intent, both to descriminate, and to accept moneys for a service one is ineligible for.

Why aren't lawyers jumping all over this one?  A crime has been committed.

I am not a sue happy person, but this is stupid.  

And for the biggots Susan and T4... remember, everyone has two personalities, themselves, and job interview.  

I think it's shameful that people would not want to take their money. If the apartment complex wanted to be safe just do a background check. While that isn't a foolproof way to weed out the riff raff, it sure would discourage those with a history from renting there.

This will eventually end up to be a legal issue because it is discrimination.  What's next, piercings?

I wish some employers would ban them.  I avoid as much as possible Wal-mart and other businesses where the employees have everything pierced, tatooed  and look all around sloppy.  SET SOME STANDARDS!  The apartment complexes have the right idea.  I wouldn't rent one of my houses to them.  BOO HOO

It's unfortunate...but this is what it is.  I personally do not care for tattoos and I do think that people look down to persons who have them.  It's hard to find a decent job with tattoos all over your body.  I was just at an Academy store the other day and the sales clerk had a band aid over his tatoos on his neck.  I guess it's like this...if you want to work here cover them up.  I do agree with Susan as well.

So far looks just a bit like a bunch of squares have read this & commented, except for New Society... What would they do if a long time outstanding tenant decided to get a sleeve? Evict them?

What's funny is that there are probably people with tattoos living there anyways, they just had their long sleeves on when they applied. HEE HEE HEE

SUSAN PUT IT BEST!!  I wish my complex had these kinds of rules.  Then all the barrio babes, ghetto gangstas, and trailer trash would not live and trash up my complex.  Can't wait for my lease to be up.      

and A Bray...u should read more.  the article states that when the potential renter came back with his tatoos exposed is when it was determined that he could not rent there.  Plus his deposit wasn't returned.

What you tatooed and pierced people need to remember is that you will always be looked at side ways.  Until you own the complex, or until you are the employer you have to remember that your appearance speaks volumes.  And unfortunately, piercings, gauges, and tatoos will not get you held in high regard.  Mainly because every negative stereotype of all races can be found with some kind of "ART" like this on their body.  One bad apple can ruin it for all the rest.  

I am sure there are respectable, hard working, bill paying, tax paying people out there who are pierced and tatooed, but they are a minority compared to those who are tatooed and represent the negative stereotypes we all see daily.  

SUSAN PUT IT BEST!!  I wish my complex had these kinds of rules.  Then all the barrio babes, ghetto gangstas, and trailer trash would not live and trash up my complex.  Can't wait for my lease to be up.      

and A Bray...u should read more.  the article states that when the potential renter came back with his tatoos exposed is when it was determined that he could not rent there.  Plus his deposit wasn't returned.

What you tatooed and pierced people need to remember is that you will always be looked at side ways.  Until you own the complex, or until you are the employer you have to remember that your appearance speaks volumes.  And unfortunately, piercings, gauges, and tatoos will not get you held in high regard.  Mainly because every negative stereotype of all races can be found with some kind of "ART" like this on their body.  One bad apple can ruin it for all the rest.  

I am sure there are respectable, hard working, bill paying, tax paying people out there who are pierced and tatooed, but they are a minority compared to those who are tatooed and represent the negative stereotypes we all see daily.  

If you want lots of tatoos, fine.  Be ready to give up a lot of other things besides better apts.  The world does not have to accept you for who or what you think you are.  

I rather live next door to pierced and tatooed rather than 5 illegal families bunched up together in a single-family home.

I'm so glad I don't live in one of THOSE cities.  I'm also glad I own my own home.....it's sad to think that people have to lead such a vanilla lifestyle to be considered normal.  No wonder Europeans are still decades ahead of us!!!

I have two cousins with good jobs and excellent rental histories who would be disqualified for these apartments because they have extensive lower arm tattoos -- tattoos they got while honorably serving their country in the US Navy.

This policy is completely ridiculous. Having tattoos is not a sign of delinquency, any more than not having tattoos is a sign of upright citizenship. Most people are smarter than to discriminate on the basis of something so (literally) superficial.

Run credit and background checks, but leave the body art out of it!

one more thing I thought about.......how many of the people who posted on here about NOT liking tattoos are PRO-Lifers?  It's okay to kill an innocent unborn baby because it's YOUR body, but not okay to rent an apartment to someone with tattoos & piercings (something they choose to have on their body)?

Are you KIDDING ME? Ok so if it's religious it goes to court? I'd get a cross tattoo and take this to the damned courts it's so stupid. Tattoos don't mean shi*. I have a job, make over 60K a year and have full sleeves. Obviously, I don't openly wear them at work, but GET REAL, when Happy Hour hits, THEY'RE OUT. Conservatives ROT the value and core of America, it's Freedom of Expression idiots, grow up.

TskTsk, that's comparing apples and oranges. They are only talking about tats and piercings...come on!!!!  I don't think the application is going to ask about abortions...get real.

Its stupid discrimination. Plain and simple. And middle-school discrimination at that. The "I don't like how you dress/decorate, so I'm not gonna let you play."

Glad I don't live there.

60k's nothing......and that's some tuff talk for someone who hides there tatts at work.....face you play into the conservative game and are too weak to take a stand.

I agree with Sal. I would also much rather live next to a tattooed peirced up person then a family home crammed with illegal immigrents who dont have respect enough for this country to LEARN F**KING ENGLISH!!! Not to mention following the correct steps to a LEGAL citizen.

I thought long and hard about this issue, and there are a few things I thought about.  First, I understand the desire for the apartment complex to keep their community looking neat and clean.  But to completely reject someone who has visible art on their body seems excessive.  I personally have two tattoos, and plan to get several more, and am currently the head of interiors at an architecture firm at a mere 23.  I rent a townhouse, and have never missed or been late on a payment, caused a disturbance in my neighborhood, or had any complaints from my neighbors.  The idea that I or anyone could be rejected because of our appearance is ridiculous.  My roommate is always late on payments and blasts her music loud late at night...she has no tattoos...who should be prevented from renting?

It is discrimination.  

The only thing the apartment personnel should be concerned with is if they can pay their rent on time.

This is stupid.  There are more important things going on in the world than to worry about people with tattoos or any other body modification.

I consider myself a liberal and I totally agree with people who choose to exercise their freedom of expression through tattoos and piercings. The flipside is that apartment managers get to express their freedom of expression by not renting to these people, along with bad credit or felonious history.  Renters are already too vulnerable and have little recourse, in term of protecting their belongings, privacy and security.  If you want to join the masses of "individuals" who want to be preceived as on the fringes and marginalized by society, be prepared have your self-fulfilling prophesy come true.  

So what was the policy on piercings?

freedom of expression? discrimination? last time i checked the us supreme court has not decided people with tats or piercings are a protected class. freedom of expression? the GOVERNMENT cant restrict freedom of expression (except in certain cases) but PRIVATE groups like apartment owners sure as heck can respond to your freedom of expression however the heck they want! it's funny freedom is a two way street and private land owners are free to NOT rent to you if they dont like how you use your freedoms.

While some of the people who have responded in favor of this policy are obviously ill informed (or outright nutters)  saying that the majority of the people with body art are 'bad apples' - the simple fact of the matter is that these apartments are PRIVATE property. The owners should be able to rent them to whoever they want - and if that means they dont like piercings or tats - then so be it.

Just for the record I would be disqualified for renting under these guidelines.

a) if there was a god, the dude died a long time ago so i'll do whatever i want with my body.

b) "Agreed" you should learn how to spell properly if you're gonna make fun of illegal immigrants for not learning your language.  apparently you aren't the brightest one out of the bunch.

c) replies like most of these make me realize that the world might have a reason for being upset with america.

Maybe Americans need a King to decide everything for them, where to live, what to eat, which cousin to marry. Better still, any single person who smokes or makes less than 75K a year shouldn’t be allowed to rent an apartment period. While you are getting started, just judge everyone based on the economics of how they look and not who they are as people because obviously you are not capable of the kind of intelligence it takes to realize that there is a difference.

who ever said that tattoos make a persona  credit risk? plain and simple large tattoos are considered by many to be taboo. the apartment complex is not keeping these people out because they are worried about a tattooed person's ability to pay rent. They are doing it because they are worried that having the person as a tenant will have a negative effect on the image of the property - possibly alienating existing or future prospective tenants.

First of all to you who automatically assume that simply beacause someone has tattoos they are a "Thug" or "Ghetto Mama" are being prejiduce.  You are no different than those who discriminate against someone based upon their ethnic background or "skin color".  I myself have several tattoos.  I am also a member of the USAF and hold a career that could easily earn 100k plus on the outside.  CIS Program management.  I also posess a Bachelors degree and two associates.  My bachelors being in "Computer Science" a technical degree not a art degree.  For you to ban someone from a property because they're personal appearance isn't to your liking is both prejiduce and embarassing.  I as a service member find this disturbing because I fight everyday for our freedoms.  My brothers and sisters lay down their lives so that we may live in a free country.  Just to have idiots like this infringe upon those very same freedoms.  If you have any comments on my post.  Post them and I will reply.  I find this very disturbinng.  

Excuse me, "MayorPhill" what do you mean by ...unless you live on the East or West side?  I live on the East side and I have lived on the Northside and everywhere in between.  The people on the Northside have just as many tattoos as those on the East and/or West.  I hope you are not saying we are all thugs if we live on these sides of town.
Tattoos are not about what side of town you live on - each person regardless of where they are from chooses their tattoos, if any.

Anyway, everyone has the right to do what they want to THEIR OWN BODIES.  I have 2 myself and my husband has 2 as well.  They do not show at work as many other people keep theirs covered as well, if they choose.

My son has a teacher with flames up his arms and it doesn't make him any less of a teacher with his tattoos visable or not.

It is not right, so take yourself, family, & money elsewhere.  Another complex I'm sure would be glad to move you in and start collecting more money.

Maybe these people should worry more about renting to illegal aliens.  Those are the people that should have a hard time finding somewhere to live.  And God knows that there are MORE than enough in San Antonio.

Joshua C >>>>>>> dont your brothers and sisters die so that land owners have the FREEDOM to rent to whoever they want? This is PRIVATE property last I checked, meaning no one has the RIGHT to live there - but they get to with the landlord's PERMISSION.

If your idea of freedom means people can only have it when what they are doing happens to be acceptable to you then you are a disgrace to your uniform and the ideals you claim to defend.

Have you ever read the first amendment? simply put it says the GOVERNMENT can not restrict the freedom of expression except in special circumstances. It does NOT say that you are protected from other private citizens responding unfavorably to how you choose to express yourself.

Again for the record I would NOT qualify to rent an apartment under these guidelines.

Basically this rule gives them the ability to legally discriminate. By having an "appearance policy" they can remove "undesirables" without opening themselves up to accusations of racism.

Rules like these allow for legal discrimination in a number of cases unless plaintiffs can prove it wasn't about tattoos but about race.

 Hey Henry Cisneros,

Bring it on you little girl,  you think you look tough and act tough, but the truth is....you don't know how to read.  you live with your parents, make no money and babysit you younger sisters 8 kids.

I'm all about expressing yourself, however your an idiot.

Now eat your pork and beans.....and like it.

I applied to join the Air Force and got denied because of the tattoo on my forearm. It was still coverable by long sleeves, but they said the tattoo was "too large" for me to be acceptable, even though I scored incredibly high on the practice ASVAB. Yet, naturally, if there were a draft, you know I wouldn't be "unacceptable" anymore.

Personally, I feel that this IS a form of discrimination - It's a person's attempt to impose his or her own opinion as to what constitutes "acceptable appearance" on others. Fact of the matter is, we should be judging by "content of character," but nobody seems to get that yet - They're all too busy looking at book covers and going, "I don't like that one."

You have a right to speak, not a right to have people listen.

You have the right to express yourself, but don't expect everybody else to like how you choose to do it.

In fact, in the case of more than minimal tattoos, there's an inherent rebelliousness to it that presumes that most people won't like it.  That's why you do it.

So don't get pissed when somebody does what you should expect, when they say they don't like it, and choose to not allow you into their space.

If the new crew here had thought to dig a bit deeper they would have discovered that one of the identifying factors law enforcement and gang prevention personnel use to I.D. gang members is tattoos on the neck, face and head. Especially here in Southern California.

And since it is the duty of any good landlord to protect the safety of his tenants and property, it is smart for that landlord to do all he can to avoid renting to people who are involved in gang activities.

I know a lot of people who into the latest fashion of tattoos and piercings as a "personal statement" and that's fine.
BUT choosing to participate in a form of body art that is also used as a way of showing "belonging" for a large number of violent and illegal organizations and then be surprised and angry when you get caught in a policy filter meant to keep a corporations other clients safe from those violent groups, well, that's just being willfully disingenuous. And if this couple didn't "know" that some landlords are suspicious of tattoos on potential renters, why did the husband wear long sleeves for the first walk-through (when it's still hot in most places)?

As for the non-refundable fee-- I am tattoo free, but when I've paid a processing fee when apartment hunting and not rented that unit, I don't get my processing fee back either.

Like all choices in visible expression, from bumper stickers, to clothing styles to the way you wear your hair, you make your choices knowing that there's likely to be SOMEONE who doesn't share your taste. And when you choose something as permanent as a tattoo where it won't be covered by clothing, you choose the social consequences as well.

It's gotta suck to get turned down for an apartment because of tattoos.  That being said, it's PRIVATE property.  If I own something, I decide who I allow to use it.  The end. (and no, I don't have tattoos, but I do have a few non-traditional, gaged piercings, and yes, I have had problems with crappy jorbs and them, but that's ok, because i have my bachelors in art and that's the field I work in, so my mohawk and piercings are ok at work any time, hell, I've even worn them to polo matches and no one in the VIP tent looked at me sideways for them.)

I have arm tattoos, including my WASD keys on my arm for my love of Competitive gaming and my participation in it.  I have an excellent office job for a good company, this is highly biased and stupid.  Period.

Mayor Phil, you are a complete jackass. Go die in a fire.

  Maryanne said:
If God wanted us to have tattoos, he would have decorated our skin for us.  I think the culture of "tattoos and piercings" has gone too far.  Bodies covered with way too many tattoos are not attractive!

You have the right to your opinion about "bodies covered with way too many tattoos are not attractive" but it's just that, your opinion.  And I'm sure that you have never colored your hair or wore make up right?  If God wanted you to look that way he would have done it for you.  Your argument sucks and you fail.  

They should ban fat people too, they really make the place look bad.  And people who wear bright colors, that's so offensive.  

Maryanne: If God wanted us to have tattoos, he would have decorated our skin for us.

And if there actually was a god and wanted us clothed, he would have had us in 3 piece suits when we were born.

We shouldn't judge a book by it's cover!!!! I'm a Professional who earns close to $100K yet I have two tattoos. Does this mean I shouldn't be able to rent an apt? Tattooes does not make someone a thug, it's they way they act and their behavior which is pretty much what the Apt folks are doing...they are the real thugs in sheep's clothe. I'll make sure no to recommend that place to my friends who are looking for an Apt.

 OK Chris i'm sorry i insulted your boyfriend Henry.

Have a nice wedding and say hello to all 4 of your little kido's for me.

First of all, I am covered in tattoos. I am not a thug, white trash or a criminal in any way. My arms, neck, hands and just about everything else are completely tattooed. <P>I work at an upscale Restaurant.  I am on the directors list in college and I have the 2nd highest grades in my graduating class. I've spent the past couple years working with a grade school and teaching children how to ride unicycles as an after school program and I volunteer for the humane society.<P>I have never been involved in a crime, have never done anything illegal and don't even have a speeding ticket on my driving record. I don't do drugs and rarely even have an alcoholic beverage. I don't know many non-tattooed people who can even say they don't get drunk or don't have any traffic violations.<P>If I didn't mention that I was tattooed would you still think that I'm some thug or some trailer trash?<P>Second, tattoos are expensive. Yeah, there are some cheap terrible tattoos out there. But for the most part tattoos are very expensive. If you see someone with extensive tattoo work, guaranteed they spent a lot of money looking the way they do. They can probably afford rent. I know I don't have a problem paying for tattoo work, my car, my motorcycle, my schooling, my rent and what ever other bills I may have.<P>It is ridiculous denying an apartment to someone because of tattoos. I can understand doing a criminal background check and a credit check. But if that tattooed person pays their bills and has no criminal background they should be treated as anyone else. And any future tenant that applies at the apartment complex, should be informed (if concerned about their tattooed neighbor) that background/credit checks were performed. <P>I know and most tattooed people know that with tattoos we will never be a lawyer, doctor or some CEO in corporate America, because there is a professional look that is unattainable with tattoos popping out of your clothing. But there are tons of other jobs out there that any good, hardworking, honest (and even tattooed) person can obtain. So, get used to it, tattooed people are everywhere doing the same things, working the same jobs that non-tattooed people do.<P>Discrimination is everywhere, and discrimination based on body art is still discrimination regardless of what laws say. Many years ago there weren't laws protecting people from being discriminated on race, religion or sexual preference. And with time that'll change for us tattooed people. We are being judged on our skin color, even though it's voluntary, it's still discrimination. You choose your religion and you can't be denied an apartment for that. We choose to be tattooed and shouldn't be denied either.

Regardless of our opinions.. the guy who owns that building paid for it.. it's his.. it is and should remain his sole right to decide who will and who will not live on property he owns.. who he will and will not do business with.  There are plenty of people willing to rent to people with body art.. or anything else.  Personally, I find a tattoo fitting with someone smoking.. both signs of the uneducated.  But I don't own the building.. so my opinion, like everyone elses who doesnt own the building is just noise.  Let the owner do business with who he wants.. or not.

"it's funny freedom is a two way street and private land owners are free to NOT rent to you if they dont like how you use your freedoms."

Just because the apartments are "private land" doesn't mean the owners can discriminate nilly-willy against prospective tenants. Try rejecting someone because they're Black -- you'll get slapped with a lawsuit before you can say "Fair Housing Administration." And at least in the city where I live, local fair housing laws prohibit housing discriminating on the basis of political ideology (one of the most essential freedoms).

To be sure, whether we should add the inked and pierced to the groups of people protected by fair housing laws is another issue. I myself have body art, and it's never been an issue when renting an apartment. Landlords seem happy to lease to me because: 1) I have a 10-year record as a good tenant who always pays the rent on time; 2) I have a professional job (Who cares what I have under my suit?); and 3) I have a large income. Sounds as if these landlords are utter tools. I'd just vote with my checkbook and choose to live elsewhere. There's no shortage of apartments in San Antonio, is there?

I do agree, incidentally, that if they accepted the application fee *knowing* the prospective tenants would be turned down under the body art policy, then the landlords are pretty sleazy (yet another reason to look elsewhere).

"I know and most tattooed people know that with tattoos we will never be a lawyer, doctor or some CEO in corporate America"

Oh really? I guess I'll have to turn in my law license, then. </sarcasm>

Freedom is Freedom.  Why is it that someone stomping on your 'rights, desires, opinions' it's discrimination, but when you stomp on theirs it's "Freedom"

Private property means admission at the owner's discretion.  Discrimination exists for protected classes only.  Body ink and piercings are not protected.

Wanna know what's funny? When you or your loved ones are in the nursing home eating through a tube, my tattooed arms will be treating you and giving you the best care possible. I don't think when you are in pain and you dial 911 that you really care if I have tattoos as long as I dispatched an ambulance right away. So why wouldn't I be able to rent an apartment? Maybe you people need to realize that sometimes the people you hate, belittle or discriminate against who have tattoos and or piercings are a large part of society that make the world go around. My mom has a tattoo. My doctor,dentist,pastor even the local police officers and firemen have tattoos. My body art is a celebration of my heritage and my cultural traditions that are being shunned by this so called conservative society. Put this into perspective, the guy who held shoplifted from that store, yeah he had a tattoo. Our president, vice president and several of our elected government officials have been found guilty   of much worse. I don't think they have tattoos do they? Where is the logic people? Think!

"obvious" ("dubious" might be more appropriate) enlightened us with:

"Private property means admission at the owner's discretion.  Discrimination exists for protected classes only.  Body ink and piercings are not protected."

1) "Discrimination" is disparate treatment. Categorically rejecting applicants who have tattoos or piercings is discrimination. It may not be illegal discrimination, but it's discrimination, Bubba.

2) How do you square the idea of "private property means admission at the owner's discretion" with your concession in the very next sentence that there are protected classes?

What do I think?  If I were discriminated against for this, I would roll a die, and return in that many months to vandalize the properties.

We need to revamp our discrimination policies.  I can't discriminate against a family of hateful Christians who condemn me for being gay and try to pass laws limiting my rights...and they CHOSE to be Christians!

hooters wont hire fat waitresses, The Spurs wont sign my 5'5 overweight mexican behind to a contract, JC Penny wont let one walk around and shop without shoes, and an apartment wont lease to a tattoo freak for fear of spooking business away. Whats new. People want to "express" themselves with tattoo art and thats their right. Its the Apt right to reject their apt for their appearance.

My husband & most of my family are tattooed. We are not thugs or white trash. We own a home, make good money; we volunteer our time to MS, Breast Cancer, and to adopting out Greyhounds. We have never once missed a payment on our bills, and we always pay our credit cards in full. We have never committed a crime or broken the law. We are good people. I hate to think that someone would judge me by how I look or what is on my skin.

Truth said "What you tattooed and pierced people need to remember is that you will always be looked at side ways. Until you own the complex, or until you are the employer you have to remember that your appearance speaks volumes.  And unfortunately, piercing, gauges, and tattoos will not get you held in high regard.  Mainly because every negative stereotype of all races can be found with some kind of "ART" like this on their body.  One bad apple can ruin it for all the rest.  

I am sure there are respectable, hard working, bill paying, tax paying people out there who are pierced and tattooed, but they are a minority compared to those who are tattooed and represent the negative stereotypes we all see daily."

I know a many more tattooed people who are respectable, hard working, bill paying, and tax paying people than those that are not. To me people who judge people based on tattoos are almost as bad as people who judge people by race. If you believe in a stereotype & judge someone by one, you are a bigot. I don't judge people by there race or what there body modification is. I judge people by their individual actions.

I think the apartments have a right to tell anyone who can and who cannot rent at their place. There are plenty of apartments in the city to rent at (preferebly far away from the medical center).

i make 100k+ / year and am covered from the neck down, wrist up.  i have a friend who is a pediatrician and has about half as many tattoos as i.  thank GOD we both live in austin where people don't give a flying f*** about how you look.  the conformist ba$tards who own that complex want a specific type of person to move in.  that's discrimination no matter how you slice it.  this incident is an actual example of discrimination.  all of you white bread goody-goodies:  each and everyone of you has a skeleton in your closet that would disqualify you in some way.  i wish this had happened to me because i'm rich and i would SUE.

All these negative things being said about tattoos and piercings were the same things said about blacks in the 1960's. "We don't want those kind living here!!!"
Wow. There sure are a lot of judgmental people in the world. I hope this couple sues the apartment complex owners and wins.

Having very ostentatious tattoos frequently signifies that the wearer had been in prison once, particularly if there are certain types that are used.  This may be a factor behind landlords adopting such a practice.  Is there any hard empirical evidence linking tattoos or piercings to problematic behavior?  I don't know for sure.  But I can understand landlords enacting a risk-avoidant policy based on appearance.  For example, I will cheerfully admit that I will not go out with any pierced or tattooed guy -- safety is too important to take risks just on the basis of some principle.

"For example, I will cheerfully admit that I will not go out with any pierced or tattooed guy -- safety is too important to take risks just on the basis of some principle."

You really think that's going to provide you with any meaningful "safety"?

ROTFLOL!

Hoo-boy, I knew Texans weren't too bright, but this really takes the cake.

jamcat100 provided the following piece of "wisdom":

"I think the apartments have a right to tell anyone who can and who cannot rent at their place."

Y'know, I'm an atheist, and I find most evangelical/fundamentalist Christians to be annoying and self-righteous. What if an apartment complex had a "no Christians" policy? Methinks you'd change your tune very quickly.

Forget god.....he didn't create me, people created him, just the same as a tattoo or a piercing.....this is asinine to deny people a place to live based on personal appearance...

If this were the case, as an apartment manager, i wouldn't allow anyone with a NASCAR hat OR a mullet.  White trash is worse than a thug, at least they have a tendency to take showers to look fly.  

Texas is backwards......fark em.

"I know and most tattooed people know that with tattoos we will never be a lawyer, doctor or some CEO in corporate America"

I guess that Masters Degree in Computer Science that landed my current position as the VP of Technology (CTO) for a rather large corporation was a waste. I mean, with me having 28 tattoos and all. I just choose to get them in places (even with my arms covered) that will not be exposed when I am in business attire. It’s a two way street. Yes it’s bad when someone, such as me, who is a homeowner, retired vet and an Evil Corporate Executive is looked down upon. But at the same time, I had to take the responsibility to make sure I didn’t derail my goals, so I avoided getting ink on my hands, or any location. It’s give and take.   I show my ink at the right places and times or to the right people (or people I could careless what they think).

oh Publius-

Literally, yes, it is discrimination.  Just like vegans discriminate against animal products.  It's also known as preference or choice.  In the context of this thread there is an assumed association with the legal version of the term.  I pointed this out because a fair number of the responses seem to think that any sort of discrimination is illegal.

Now that we've established that the comments were meant to be taken in the legal context, perhaps your second comment needs no further response.  Oh wait, you need the help.  LEGALLY- if it ain't in the protected class, it ain't discrimination; therefore being the owner's discretion.  That help?

Now, if you want to discuss the points I did make, please go ahead.  I agree, I am guilty of assuming some basic sense.  for that I apologize sincerely.

eViL pOp TaRt said:

"For example, I will cheerfully admit that I will not go out with any pierced or tattooed guy -- safety is too important to take risks just on the basis of some principle. "

==============================

i'll cheerfully admit that i think your generalization about people with tattoos is baseless and rooted in stereotypes that you may not even be consciously aware of.  should i construe from your posting handle that you're an evil person and therefore not let my kids play with your kids?  are you that perception-challenged that you can't discern good people from bad?   i feel sorry for you.

"If God wanted us to have tattoos, he would have decorated our skin for us.  I think the culture of "tattoos and piercings" has gone too far.  Bodies covered with way too many tattoos are not attractive!"

If God wanted you to live in a condo and drive a Mercedes, he would have planted your fat ass in them.

Agreed, Buckner. I've been through and lived in some of the "roughest" parts of America, including the South Side of Chicago... but the only incident where someone has attempted to commit a seriously violent crime against me was some redneck in the middle of nowhere, Indiana. I'd much rather deal with a "thug"... at least they've never caused me any trouble.

ABray............................................ Your stupid. No crime has been commited. The app. fee was given back. And it IS the owner of the appts. right to refuse. I have the same type of clause in the 12 Houses that i rent in the S.A. area.

obvious lamely replied with:

"Literally, yes, it is discrimination.  Just like vegans discriminate against animal products.  It's also...." [SMACK!]

Oh, put a sock in it. I'm going to "discriminate" against idiots, so do not post on this blog ever again. Capice?

 Hell son,  I put the red in neck....

The T4 Project posted:

"The app. fee was given back."

Did you even READ the article? It was refunded ONLY after the media got wind of this. Otherwise, the landlords would have taken the money and ran.

"I have the same type of clause in the 12 Houses that i rent in the S.A. area."

Your loss. There are two things I'd care about if I were a landlord:

1) Is this person going to pay the rent?

2) Is this person going to break the law or otherwise cause problems?

But this is really a non-issue for me, since there's no way in hell I'd live in San Antonio, so get bent.

It IS discrimination.  Maybe not by law, but laws change all the time and this is one that needs to be looked into being changed soon.  I dont even have any tattoos but I can see that its wrong to reject them for that.  To those of you that are agreeing with the apartment, I cant wait till you're discriminated against.  Maybe it'll be because you're too fat, too bald, too ugly, etc........

Discrimination is fun until some one loses and eye. It’s good to see that discrimination for people that are different is alive and well. All sarcasm aside, it’s completely wrong for an establishment to do so. I work for an up and coming company that employs more than 1800 people in SA and the average salary is 50k and most of these people that earn this much are covered in tattoos. I give thanks I don’t have to deal with people that are as closed minded as you on a daily basis. That’s why we try really hard for people with that mentality to stay out of the company and those that do slip in don’t stay for long. As far as the apartment managers are concerned it’s up to them to do a proper job. If a tenant is causing problems its up to them to enforce the rules and evict those that are reeking havoc on the apt community.

Right now we have a contingent of people in San Antonio that likes to go around "tagging" and spray painting buildings and businesses and call it "art" too. They have the full support of the “art community” to deface public. Not being allowed to “tag” a building is somehow supposed to infringe upon their rights as artist. Never mind the cost to the people that own the buildings and businesses. Hey man it is art.

I agree with Susan and the apartment complex owner’s right to choose the standards they want set in their communities. The people who choose to cover themselves in ink know before hand that there will be certain sociological results for their choices. That means it will limit the opportunities at work and tattoo bans have existed in this country for decades now. If you are big enough to make the choice, then you can be big enough to live with the consequences I say.

Grow up and welcome to the real world.

Hell son.....sit and spin.

I have a fantastic full-time creative job (where body mods are accepted, and do not have to be covered up), a great credit rating and have never been in trouble with the law. I also do volunteer work with at-risk youth and am a landlord to boot.  But at the same time, I have tattoos and piercings that would disqualify me from living at this apartment. Do I find their policy tacky?  Hell, yeah.  Just as tacky as the insinuation that all tattooed and pierced people belong to the criminal element or can't lead successful, productive lives.  That's like saying all blondes are dumb airheads - obviously we know this isn't true, but it's a generalization just like the tattoo one. Generalizations only expose ignorance.

This sort of discrimination may be stupid, but it's not illegal. Though, they should be telling perspective tenants about their "weird" rule upfront and follow that up by not accepting application deposits from people who have no chance in hell of being allowed to live there. Otherwise, what they are doing is underhanded and shady. I'd be pissed off too if someone took a sum of money from me, but never intended to process my app. Think about it, you'd be too.  This is like putting a deposit on a car, when the dealer knows all along he has no intention of selling the car to you or completing the transaction.

Sure, they may think they are protecting themselves or their property's image, but as with anything it is only a matter of time before one of their clean-cut "acceptable" tenants get in some sort of trouble with missed rent payments, drugs, gangs, domestic violence, etc., because being clean-cut doesn't automatically equate to being a good person or paying your bills on time. Just look at serial killers, most aren't covered in tats and piercings, most blend in so well with everyone else that there's genuine surprise from those close to them when their deeds are finally uncovered. Sometimes those responsible for the worst crimes, are the last we'd expect. Now that's something to think about!

You Texans ...  You're all what's wrong with America.  I hope you never come to California.  You'll infect us with your redneck, ass-backwards hick ways.

Ok well i make five grand a month and i have tattoos and stretched ears. So it just goes to show you that the mid west is still a white racist breeding ground and I'm white myself. the only option those people have that i can think of is to move to a city. where people have a better understanding for one another and leave the people who smell like horse *** in texas( GW)

People want to bring GOD in to the Subject......I hope he sends ALL you Prejudice, dicriminating, asses straight to HELL on your day of judgement.  If 2 separate people apply for an apartment and niether have a criminal record and perfect credit and enough income to pay rent each month and the person that is INKED up does not qualify it is DISCRIMINATION no matter whick way you look at it.  Weather it is legal or not it is DISCRIMINATION.  I am a firm believer of whats your you do what you want with it, but if your in the business of making money than the only ink that should matter is the ink that is uses to print the money that keeps you in business......And for all you think this is right than tell that to all the Police Officers, Firemen, US TROOPS that fight everyday for YOUR freedom and protection.

 hey Lex,  you work for a little money and you work on the west side.

you,ll never be a CEO, just a waiter......go get me glaze donut and bottle of anything....too GO!!!!!

No need for any hateful rhetoric, on either side.  A little informed, polite criticism works a lot better than a tirade.  Monica made some excellent, well-thought-out points in her post.

As a tattooed, green-haired woman of 43, I am a part-owner and the office manager of a small advertising company in Hollywood.  My hair, my tattoos, my daily "uniform" of harness boots, Levis and tank tops is not considered remarkable in the slightest here.  None of the above has ever prevented me from getting or having a job, or affected where I have lived.  Part of the reason for that, is because I understand that when looking for a place to live (or a job), it is wise to take into consideration that not everyone is going to be as happy with your personal choices of fashion and expression as you are.  It is easy to cover up tattoos by wearing a sleeved shirt - if your tattoos are still visible, you will likely have a tougher time of it, but still.  If one place does not seem happy with your appearance, go to another.  Would you really want to live in a building where you are viewed by management as disruptive or possibly even criminal, based off your ink?  I think not.

It ain't rocket science, and no, nobody is required to rent to you or hire you if YOUR personal expression choices - choices easily covered up or mitigated, I might add - render you difficult to employ or have as a tenant.  Do I think tattooed folk are "thugs," as the first poster so laughably and inaccurately stated?  Not in the slightest.  I do however acknowledge and am perfectly fine with the incontrovertible fact, that not everyone considers tattoos to be art.  Some love them, others do not.  Their reasons are their own.
...and it's all good.

I'm heavily tattooed and I'll bet I make more than most of you do.  Tattoos and piercings in and of themselves say NOTHING about a person's character.  I've met numerous people from all walks of life who are tattooed, from university students to university deans, from retail clerks to CEOs.  Not everybody's tattoos are visible, and if you're going to judge somebody based on a single quality like body art, you should watch out who you do this judging around.  Recent statistics have shown that more than half of adults in the US now have at least one tattoo.

i currently make ~$40k/year as a lead pharmacy technician in a HOSPITAL, and when my husband graduates from college in may he will be starting at around $65-$70k as a master automotive technician... we both have multiple facial piercings, body piercings, and i have visible tattoos. but just because we have body modifications, these landlords wouldn't take our money.

ok, their loss.

I have tattoo's and streched ears. I could care less if someone didnt want to rent an appartment, house or even give me a job. That is a part of having them. Just have to deal with it.

i agree with you marcy i work in philly and people that look like us are freaking everywhere, and the people of the west and east have already gotten accustomed to (us). so guess leave texas alone and let them eat each ohther.

lisa kippon posted:

"... as a lead pharmacy technician in a HOSPITAL"

In the interest of Truth in Advertising [TM], I'll translate that for you:

"I fill and label pill bottles."

Impressive. </sarcasm>

Atoz is correct, on both accounts.

Tattoo bans have existed for decades in EVERY state of the nation. They exist NOW in every state of the nation, and San Antonio is hardly the only city in America or the WORLD where property owners exercise their right to have standards. Note there are Tattoo bans in California too.

So a news story makes national headlines, and people are showing up here to insult each other and insult the state of Texas. Why? Because a news story highlighted this happening in Texas. Is it safe to assume that every state in the union is full of the list of juvenile and irrational insults aimed at "Texas" in the above postings? Sure it is, if that is your idea of an informed intellectual comment on the matter. Some people prefer to dumb down matters and act like this old story is a new story, and that it is endemic to Texas only.

Never mind there is nothing new about this situation at all, it happens all the time.  We are to take on face value that these impassioned insult laden post are being sent in by people who really care about the issue. Now that national news services have highlighted one case in Texas. Chuckle.

Good sheeple, good .........little.....................sheeple. Must be a slow news day.

My name is Melissa and this story is actually about my husband and me.  I think it’s important that you’re made aware of the full story, so I’m writing to hopefully answer some of your questions.  To set you up for this, I think that it’s important for you to know that the cost of rent at this complex is moderately more expensive than most apartments in San Antonio.  My husband has an immaculate credit, criminal, and rental history.

When we submitted our “non-refundable” application fee and deposit we were never informed of any conditions regarding a resident’s personal appearance.  When they called to tell me about our declination and reasoning behind it, I then requested a refund, being that they dropped the ball by not informing us in advance.  The Villas at Medical Center refused to refund the full amount and even threatened to keep all of our money if I continued to argue with management. I thought it was completely unfair and illegal for them to take our application and application fee, when we would have never been approved based on their restrictions.  I was not able to reach a resolution by dealing directly with the apartment complex and this is when I wrote to WOAI.  

By contacting WOAI I also wanted to make the public aware of this legal type of discrimination.  I hope that this story makes you more aware of the prejudices in our world, but more importantly I hope it opens minds and makes a difference.  We are each given our own body to do with it as we please. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; however, I think that it is important for you to realize that tattoos do not define a person.  Lastly, those of you who choose to bring God into this situation…. Let’s let him decide for himself.  

p.s.  Thanks to Jedi for all of your creativity and talent.  You have beautifully decorated my husband’s body and I love it.

I am appalled at the majority of the comments that have been left.  It seems that those that agree with this ridiculous idea of banning potential tenants because of tattoos have plenty of fallacies in thier arguments.  First off- because a person has tattoos does not make them a "thug".  Nor does it make them uneducated and likely to draw negative attention.  Secondly-  This was never an issue of religion.  So "God" didn't create us with tattoos.  The imbocile that left that comment has probably dyed her hair, plucked her eyebrows, or (god-forbid) worn clothing.  We've all altered our appearance somehow.  Some just choose to with tattoos. Thirdly- If there are still people out there who are so quick to judge based on appearances and use terms such as "white trash" or "ghetto" I wouldn't want to live near them anyways.  

Maybe part of the problem with this whole debate could be the way it is being falsely presented by the author of this post,  Jaie Avila.

We are given to understand that this person is a "journalist" yet the mere title alone is a bold faced lie.

Nowhere in the report, either online, on TV or in print is this couple labeled as bad tenants. The couple were refused the chance to live at the complex because of their tattoos. Nobody has called them a single name, said they were bad tenants or insinuated that people with tattoos were bad tenants. Yet this so called “journalist” chose to lie (as other ‘journalist” do for dramatic effect?) in the title and a great many people (who apparently can't read) have taken off into tangential rants based upon a falsehood.

I've got 12 tats, all of them where I can cover them up. Someone does not want me to live in their complex because of my tats, good riddance then, I'll glady go somewhere more open minded. But not for one second do I not support their rights to be idiots or have those rules in place at their property!

Oh yeah, it supposed to be “news” that apartment complexes will try to keep part of your application fee for whatever reason they can come up with? Hello? Hello Mcfly?

We live in a world now where not having a tattoo or piercing is being the weird one-Yes, I even find myself judging people by the way they look but don't you think it's about time we all got over ourselves and payed more attention to who people really are other than what they look like they are! It's 2007~We better get used to people of all walks of life-This country was built on diversities remember? We just can't hide that fact anymore!!!!!!!

Dman1701 enlightened us with:

"Tattoo bans have existed for decades in EVERY state of the nation. They exist NOW in every state of the nation, and San Antonio is hardly the only city in America or the WORLD where property owners exercise their right to have standards. Note there are Tattoo bans in California too."

Context, my friend, context. This story is national news because it's an APARTMENT COMPLEX banning tattoos, not an employer, the military, etc.

As I said above, what if my "standards" include not wanting to live with evangelical/fundamentalist Christians?

"you,ll never be a CEO, just a waiter......go get me glaze donut and bottle of anything....too GO!!!!!"

i love how this weak attempt at a wise comment not only quotes a david lee roth video, but has no less than 8 grammatical and spelling errors. find them all and win!

if a place wants to run an apartment complex like some death-by-nilla-wafers country club, let them. money speaks loudest. let everyone who is sympathetic to the people who were denied their application know. the property owners might be surprised to find out it's not just the business of "those freaks" that they lose as a result.

on a side note: as someone with 24 tattoos and counting, i wouldn't WANT to live in a community where those who choose the bodymod lifestyle are rejected outright. it's 2007. we're in a pointless blood-for-oil war. our constitutional freedoms our disappearing by the hour. pollution is rampant and people are still buying land rovers. we can't feed our own country and yet we're trying to overturn roe v. wade. america is run by a meglomaniac god fearing zealot. - in other words, there are bigger problems

Our family transfered to another state for what period of time I'm not sure .... it's determined by my father's need in this area .. so we sold our home and are forced at this time to lease a home ... we found a home on a very nice street and liked it right away ... problem ? ... the tenants before we're horrible ... the rugs were just soiled so badly by food spilled and not cleaned up .. cat urine all over .. dog soil as well . and holes in the walls ... paint was filthy on the walls .. it took the landlord and my parents a month to make it livable ... it is now clean, beautiful, and the neighbors thank us daily for cleaning up the eyesore ... the previous tenants were both professinals with good paying jobs and NO tattoos ... we are a middle class family with high moral standards and we all have tattoos .. my father one, my mother has six , and I have a sleeve in the making as well as two on my ankle and neck ... my parents are law abidding hard working citizens who dont drink or smoke and help neighbors without a thought ... I hold straight A's in school and am looking forward to going to college next year ... I also am a non-drinker or smoker and believe in abstinence till marriage ... I know people whose lives are so messed up .. and they don't have one tattoo ... so you see .. we're people who choose our own life path ... good or bad ... tattoos and piercings have no bearing on these things ... by the way .. I have twelve piercings .. and many friends = )

Thanks MIssMelissa,
While I agree with the right of the owners to set standards for their property, I can’t condone their attempt to keep your money for their incompetence. And I’m not surprised that they tried to threaten you with keeping the rest of your money.

Your choice to contact WOAI was the right one; hopefully their shoddy business practices and their choice to steal people’s money will result in less occupancy and hurt their business. Truly you would not have gotten a dime back if you had not contacted the media.

I'm a former San Antonio resident with multiple tattoos, including a visible neck tattoo.  I'm also a college professor who has been told by several former landlords that they wished every tenant could be like me.  If the complex owner is so narrow-minded that he would exclude a good tenant based on his ridiculous prejudices, it's his loss.  I can't believe how stupid some people are. Geez.

Tattoos are totally disgusting!  All you women out there sporting tattoos...you think you look good, but the truth is you are viewed as trashy and "barrio babes" (I personally like that one...!)  Before you go off and tattoo yourself and get body piercings ask yourself how comfortable you will be in a trailer home and driving a clunker because when you apply for jobs that will earn you good money (so you can afford to move away from the trailer trash you are surrounded by) your potential employer will take one look at you and say, "Not NO, but HELL NO!"

There are some artsy types who like to get a lot of tattoos.  I think it's a mistake and one that won't go away but that is just my opinion.  Not everyone who has a lot of tattoos is a criminal but a lot of them are and that is a fact.  I myself know a retired policeman right here in San Antonio (I won't mention his name but I bet a lot of cops know who I am talking about.  His first name is Lieutenant.) who has tattoos everywhere except his hands and face.  Prisons are boring places where there is little to do and a lot of those there take the oportunity to get a bunch of tattoos.  In my time in the Fed System I have seen a passel of them, including misspelled names and lines that do not match up.  Every single one of those inmates had hepatitus by the way.  Nowdays some tattoo parlors offer tattoos that are designed to look like prison tattoos.  Seeing a guy covered in prison tattoos is no longer proof that he was in prison but the point is that they are trying to look like they were.  The point is that in a lot of people's minds tattoos all over the body are a criminal thing still, just like it used to be.  Maybe that is no longer true but it used to be and that is why this apartment complex won't allow heavily tattooed people in.  Can you really blame them?  They are trying to run a business renting apartments and they don't want a bunch of residents who look like they just escaped from prison.  They need lots and lots of people to rent their apartments, not just a few open minded types who are willing to overlook things they don't like.  Most apartments won't rent to people who drive old beat up sleds either.  They don't want the place to look like a ghetto dump even if the drivers of those old sleds are really fine people.  It is all about the way it looks and please don't tell me about how people need to be more open minded; they just aren't and that is how it is in the real world.  It's about the dollars.  Some of those who have defended the tattooed here mention their sleeves.  Why don't they have tattoos on their faces and hands?  It's because they know that in most segments of society it is not acceptable.  When I was a kid I had hair that hung down to my rear end.  I finally got tired of people looking at me like I was going to rob them and cut it.  I have never been the kind of person who would abuse another person but I looked like what a lot of people thought was that kind of person so I got treated like one.  For me it was as simple as getting a haircut.  The tattooed people won't find it that easy.

Haley...there you go, uneducated, incorrect punctuation...etc.  

Instead of spending money on tattoos....why don't you spend it on college tuition (assuming you already have your GED).

Haley...there you go, uneducated, incorrect punctuation...etc.  

Instead of spending money on tattoos....why don't you spend it on college tuition (assuming you already have your GED).

I am going to build an apartment complex and not rent to blacks or hispanic people.

Because, hey.... that's my right. I get the freedom to rent to who ever I feel like renting to.


IT'S THE SAME THING.

Uh..hey..Publius,
The context is that there is nothing illegal with property owners setting standards for their property, as long as they don't discriminate. If they want to automatically close themselves off to everyone who has a tattoo, it is their loss.

In answer to your rather shallow question, I suspect the "Christians" would not want to live anywhere THEY feel unwanted at. Again, the property owner’s loss. I’m no “Christian” but nice try at stereotyping there..though it failed.

I can't help but notice that aside from your original post, you have felt compelled to come along and sneer at everyone that does not see things the way you do. Maybe you should change your name to Spammalot? Clearly you are not here to share your opinion, but to argue with people. How silly and obvious of you.

Did you have something even approaching intelligent to say on your own, or is throwing vegetables at everyone else your bag?

(Hint...that was a rhetorical question)

Goodbye, do try to remember that there are tons of internet debate forums full of peoople who just want to sneer and agrue for the sake of it. Happy hunting.

Haley- I assume from your tirade that you are tattooed.  Your behavior and language, not to mention your obvious lack of education, is pretty much what many people expect from people who are covered with tattoos.  Sure, that is not how it would be in a perfect world.  If you ever find a perfect world please be sure to tell the rest of us.  Maybe you are not the kind of person who is really like what you sound like or look like, but that is the problem with perception.  We all go on impressions and you do not make a very good one.

Lead pharmacy technician....$40K...yeah right!!

1)'discrimination' against Tats is not illegal.  

2)Freedom is a 2 way street.  Some people's ideas of freedom do offend other people- whether that idea is the idea of body ink or the idea that free association can be either inclusive or exclusive.  Some you don't like, some don't like you. Deal with it.  Spend your dollars with people and businesses you care to support.  Why would you want to give money to someone you so vehemently disagree with when you have other options.

3)Publius- you are just the sort of ass you like to rail against.  You are neither brave nor clever.  "Just because the apartments are "private land" doesn't mean the owners can discriminate nilly-willy against prospective tenants. Try rejecting someone because they're Black -- you'll get slapped..."  Genius!  Rejecting someone for being black wouldn't be 'nilly-willy' would it.  No, it would be a discrimination of a protected class.  "nilly-willy" is all the stuff that isn't protected, and YES! They can choose for whatever other reason not to allow someone to take up residency.  God Bless America.

4)missmelissa- I am sympathectic to your cause- to a point.  Only in as much as there appears to have been a contract in place with consideration proffered and accepted, then one party  failed to adhere to the contract and/or make restitution.  Now- it was only $70.  I support your right to own an apartment complex that requires it's tenants to have ink as much as I support theirs to own one that forbids it.  You don't like the idea of them telling you what to do, so your response is that you should be able to tell them what they should do? Vote with your dollars. Let others do the same.  If there's a market for it, it will carry on..... if not, you probably killed it with the publicity.  

5)No, that's it. Oh except- Bravo Dman1701

"Alias anything you please" opined:

"Most apartments won't rent to people who drive old beat up sleds either.  They don't want the place to look like a ghetto dump even if the drivers of those old sleds are really fine people."

And your proof of this sweeping assertion is...?

Every place I've rented (except my old apartment in NYC, which had no parking) merely had something in the lease about all cars being in running condition, all cars having valid plates, and no car maintenance on the premises. Oh, and the landlord wanted to know the make, model, color, and plate number of your car so they could determine whether a parked car belonged to a non-resident and should be towed away.

Look, "Alias," you can't just make this stuff up as you go along. If you want us to take you seriously, your posts need to be based on facts.

Dman1707 mindlessly posted:

"The context is that there is nothing illegal with property owners setting standards for their property, as long as they don't discriminate."

Hello, McFly? Did you even read my earlier posts? If they won't rent to inked/pierced people, that's discrimination. Some types of discrimination are illegal. Others are not. (Example: My landlord can and does "discriminate" against people with bad credit.) Try to understand the difference between the two.

There seems to be a lot of hate and ignarance on both sides of this issue, and voicing those ignorant opinions just makes us all look ridiculous.

My husband and I have each been collecting tattoos for nearly 15 years and are heavily tattooed with some facial piercings as well. We are both successful small business owners, and quiet, tax-paying, productive members of society. We're actually pretty nerdy by some standards (I'm a web programmer).

Why would we be considered undesirable tenants? Because of out-dated social norms that a lot of people still believe in. In order to change those norms, tattooed people and our defenders need to stop threatening anyone who dislikes our appearance, and instead educate them. Please don't confirm people's negative opinions by living up to their expectations of tattooed people as thugs!

It is plenty of experience you fool.  It won't say anything in the lease about tattoos or felonies or green hair or any of the other things that will keep an apartment from renting to people who don't fit their preconcieved notion of how tenants should look.  Just try going to a decent apartment complex in your old sled and see if they have any apartments to rent to you.

And Publius- I really don't give a damn whether you take me seriously or not.

let me second the BRAVO to dman1701, pubis is here to rant, rave, argue and sneer. he has done it up and down the page, then he is dense enough to ask if you read ALL of his post. of course we have not read ALL of pubis's post, he sends one in every ten seconds. jeez. his post do indeed remind me of why I QUIT going to internet debate forums!!

literally the only thing Pubis is doing here is telling all of us how right he/she is and how wrong everyone who does not agree with his/her narrow minded takes on things are.

hello mcfly indeed, he/she even knew it was he/she whom was being spoken to! LOL.

I have tattoos. The key is, I only have them in places where they would be 100% covered if I were in a short sleeve shirt and shorts/skirt. This way I can have my tattoos, but still not look like a "thug" or whatever people think individuals with lots of tattoos look like. And if I want to show them off, I can wear clothes that do that. I got my tattoos for myself, not anyone else, so if they're covered 95% of the time, that doesn't bother me at all.

But I do think these apartments are ridiculous. It's the same as saying that fat people can't move in. Does being fat change a person's personality or heart? No. Does having tattoos? Nope.

Most of the time, I find people with lots of tattoos and piercings to be incredibly nice, friendly people. But everyone judges on appearance so those of us with tattoos and piercings have to deal with that, I think.

Look, there is a reason those ridiculous tattoos on the small of the back just above the buttocks are called TRAMP STAMPS.

It is the mark of a whore.

Everyone's opinions aside, potential renters need to be informed of the appearance guild lines before ever accepting payment from them.

Bottom line.


It is their right to not rent to people who have tattoos, even if it is technically a skin color issue....

And I will add that my boyfriend and I would not be allowed to live there based on the guide lines due to his tattoos even though we're good people and I even own my own business.

Incentive to buy a home.

I live at the complex in question, I work for University hospital and so do a lot of my neighbors. It is the medical center.

The great irony here is that a lot of us plan to be in the business of tattoo removal when we get out of medical school. It is the fastest growing segment of the medical industry right now and for the foreseeable future will be too. So I say let them in, so I can meet them at the pool and get a referral!

OK, joking aside. I noticed someone pointed out above that the name of this article is a lie. That person was right, even Miss Melissa does not say she was told she would be a “bad tenant”. So why the need to lie about it in the title? Could it be to be sure people get riled up and post irrelevant replies based upon a dishonest title? I think so.

What I find interesting is that the complex tried to keep these folks money, and threatened to keep all f it if they argued with them about it. Now that IS ILLGEAL. And not one person here has picked up on that or railed about it.

How telling.

Ps- Could someone please shut up Pubic? Because there are pubic hairs all over the board and it is really starting to make the place look ghetto.

My second wife got at least ten tattoos after we got divorced.  I'm sure that she thought they made her look cool.  What she looks like is a fat, 40+ loser with tattoos all over her body.  Most of the folks who are writing in about how much they love their tattoos are pretty young.  Just wait.  You will look like my ex-wife before you know it.

Arlon--I'm 42.  I've had tattoos for the past 15 years.  I didn't get them because I thought they looked cool--I got them because I enjoy body art, just like I enjoy the art on the walls of my house.  I'm well educated, a nice person, I have a good job--I certainly don't consider myself a loser.  The only thing standing between me and more tattoos is money.  

All of this talk of tattoos is making me want to get another one.  

Oh, Arlon; you hit the nail square on the head.

Chris Rock once said I don't agree with the guy, but I understand.
thats kinda where i stand on the subject.

Alias lamely replied with:

"Just try going to a decent apartment complex in your old sled and see if they have any apartments to rent to you."

You're assuming that the landlord/manager actually sees your car when you first meet with them. In my experience, that typically doesn't happen.

Tattoo's have a history thousands of years old that spans multiple culture. Its pretty closed minded to pigeon hole a person because they choose to a line themselves with the rich tradition of tattooing.

Iam 43 and tattooed to the max head to toe. I don't care about gravity when Iam that full of wrinkels nobody will want to look at me anyway .I say enjoy your life when your young ,you die a little more each day and nobody is promised tomorrow. I work and have a good job. I agree buy your own house and tell all the you should be this or be that people to go take a *** in their hat!  For those who may not know  there are lots of good jobs that are not office jobs.There are plenty of places to live, besides I wouldn't give that tight-ass bigot landlord a dime of my hard earned money. Oh and we know about the chosen people our victorian brothers and sisters say we should follow.  Wasen't it reported not to long ago one of them was trolling a public mens room ? So who is right The big rich and powerful Dr. Landloard or the average person by the way there are lots more average people around.Lets face it the richer and more powerfull you are. Then greater are the number of avearge people under your feet. Don't forget everyone is someones fodder so everyones closer to the *** than they think. Have you checked you freedoms lately? Maybe it's just me but I think mine are shrinking!

kiley posted:

"And I will add that my boyfriend and I would not be allowed to live there based on the guide lines due to his tattoos even though we're good people and I even own my own business. Incentive to buy a home."

Not necessarily. In theory, there could be a restrictive covenant in the deed (or condominium declaration, if applicable) banning tattooed people. Sounds silly, I know, but until today I'd never heard of an apartment complex having such a rule.

Many thanks for your fine recitation of what someone else has said, Pubis.  We never would have noticed but for your fine commentary.

You are clearly an idiot who seemingly has nothing to say.  Of course, I am only repeating what so many have said before me.

Publius weaky proffered:

"Dman1707 mindlessly posted:

"The context is that there is nothing illegal with property owners setting standards for their property, as long as they don't discriminate."

Hello, McFly? Did you even read my earlier posts? If they won't rent to inked/pierced people, that's discrimination. Some types of discrimination are illegal. Others are not. (Example: My landlord can and does "discriminate" against people with bad credit.) Try to understand the difference between the two"

Hello, Genius?  did you even read my earlier posts?  Most people read legal/illegal into discrimination in this sort of disccussion, so while it is technically discrimination, it is not illegal discrimination.  Try to understand the difference between the two

Come on Publius!

Shut up your ignorant, foaming mouth.  

I know you think you sound wise and experienced in the ways of the world but you are nothing but a garden variety imbecile.

Publius words of witless:

Dman1701 enlightened us with:

"Tattoo bans have existed for decades in EVERY state of the nation. They exist NOW in every state of the nation, and San Antonio is hardly the only city in America or the WORLD where property owners exercise their right to have standards. Note there are Tattoo bans in California too."

Context, my friend, context. This story is national news because it's an APARTMENT COMPLEX banning tattoos, not an employer, the military, etc.

As I said above, what if my "standards" include not wanting to live with evangelical/fundamentalist Christians?"

So your point is that this is the first apartment complex ever to ban tats?  So that makes it newsworthy?  Such an assertion, where's the proof that this has never happened before?  Earlier you also wrote "I have a professional job (Who cares what I have under my suit?); "  So what if it weren't under a suit?  hmmm?  would it be ok then for an employer to have an issue?  What if the employer were an Apt. complex and the ink wasn't hidden, would it be ok then?  See, you got no cojones.  You go your ass to work and show them Tats.  Be all damned if they find your behavior inappropriate.  RIIIIIIGHT..............   You ain't about to do it ya little sissy.  You got no business puttin' your money where your mouth is because you don't even agree with yourself.  Go away little spew monkey!

Publius lamely crows:

"Sounds silly, I know, but until today I'd never heard of an apartment complex having such a rule."

Well then GOOD GOD if YOU don't know about it happening, it must never have happened in the history of the Earth!! Anything else you want to share with us poor ignorant sub humans from your "I Know It ALL and am right about EVERYTHING" bible in your next, what....16th post in two hours?

How about you check the section labeled "Get a life you loser"?

I think if they can be seen in the public they can be an eye soar.  I remember A Detention Officer who still works for Bexar County and has a bunch of KKK tattoos on all over his forearms.  After I saw that I was Disapointed.

Tattos should not be seen by others, if you have them cover them up.

What a Subject

Mayor Phillip, you moron, what the hell is with you?? Get a real job old man, for your (so called town) is nothing but a dust bowl, start doing your job for a change and stay out of these blog sessions, nobody cares what you think!!! you are jelous because your (alleged) wife don't let you get tats (how old is that dried up piece of leather), and you don't have any hair to grow you idiot!! I am a self made multi $$$$ and have two tats, what's your excuse you old white dude??

I'm just not seeing an issue here.  After all, this is America, founded on the great notion of state's rights.  Apartment complexes are just little states, and there are lots of them that refuse tenants with pets, or children, or other small nuisances.  It's not like Joe Army with his Momma tattoo can't go rent some other place.  You know, they keep child molestation criminals out of certain areas, why not these tribal types?  

I would like to know how having tattoos makes you sloppy as stated in a previous comment. Or a whore

Im pretty sure my piercings and body art require a lot of care and CLEANING. Nor do they screw me in the middle of the night.

And by the way why dont we ALL wear uniforms 24/7 because maybe I dont want to see your THUGGISH clothes. You know...jeans, Tshirts, and of course hats. They are all obvious signs of your filth and failure...

I think Ill start an apartment complex and only rent to tattooed or pierced clients...obviously if you dont have them, you don't appreciate the artistic aspects of life enough to gain my respect. Sorry.

i like the fact that everyone is trying to be the bigger dog lol "im right, im right..your wrong" you guys are lame and as far as "i probably dont like you either!" your hilarious. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, so theres no reason to argue over dumb ***..no matter what is said in this blog wont change the fact that the guy who turned the people down is a closed minded ***, so dont lose to much hair over it people.

 
Sinus Rodriquez said:
"I'm just not seeing an issue here.  After all, this is America, founded on the great notion of state's rights.  Apartment complexes are just little states, and there are lots of them that refuse tenants with pets, or children, or other small nuisances.  It's not like Joe Army with his Momma tattoo can't go rent some other place.  You know, they keep child molestation criminals out of certain areas, why not these tribal types?  "

Because child molesters and criminals committed a crime.
That's on a whole different level and hardly an argument.

haley is right....

and since i havent posted on this enough in my last 2 posts... I probably wouldnt want to live in a community that would down upon someone who I know is a good person all  because of ink.

I like tattoos.  My mother and I both have matching tattoos.  If you don't like them you are stupid.

You people are all stupid and you should listen to those who know better.

I really enjoy writing here so people can read what I think.  I am really pretty smart and I have really serious and deep tattoos.

What is this world coming to. No wonder I hate San Antonio and Dallas - chocked full of conservative zombies who care only for the rights and freedoms of those who meet their "criteria". You people should be scared - scared of yourselves!

And another thing too- I don't like all you people who make fun of my name.  You just are not smart enough to know what it means.

Pathetic- You are pathetic.  We have tattoos and I am in charge of all the smart people.

Publius will be back soon to comment more.  He was on fries and his suit caught fire.  Not to worry- we put him out and he and his tattoos are both fine.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death...Amen


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death...Amen


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death...Amen


GLORY BE TO THE FATHER

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.

1st JOYFUL MYSTERY:
The Annunciation to Mary

Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word."

Mary said "Behold, look not on the marks of the demon above my anus, for I am the mother of the Christ Child.  I was into ArrowSmith for a while".

Dream on, babies.

Good for the apartment owners and managers. I'm sick and tired of seeing idiots running looking like south Alabama carnival trash and I sure as hell wouldn't want to live any place where I have to look at freaks in the same building.

this is america if they went to have body art on then let then if san antonio poice lets there cops have then all over there body then apt complex souldnt say any thing I bet if that was a cop rent that art. they would get it

Since when should tattoos matter when someone is willing to pay the rent? What's next? A sexual practices questionairre that deducts eligibilty points for anything other than horizontal?
Come to think of it, there are plenty o' servicemen out there who have body art, so PLEASE deny them access to housing based on that. Everyone talks the big game of supporting the troops, back it up.
Grow up folks, and stop judging books by their cover.

T4..............  As I have read the article, I read this quote "The Carrillos were also upset that the manager refused to refund their full $70 application fee. But mostly, they feel the policy is discriminatory. "

Yes, it was refunded after the negative publicity...  but that was the ONLY reason.

I don't like bigotry.... and basically, and expression of ones self, if it be clothing, hair, tattoos, whatever, is fine.  Tattoos that signify gang relationship would be another thing, but that is laziness on the landlords part.  Basically, thinking anyone with tattoos is a thug is just ignorant.  

I guess it just turns out that people have to be hatefull.  Religion, race, sex, now tattoos.  Whatever.

I remember being thought of as an irresponsible person when I moved to San Antonio, because I was in the military, and not an officer.

I just feel sorry for you T4.  I was looking in my book of people that are better than the rest... and didn't see your picture, you judgemental ass.

I like how so many inked people are responding to this story telling how educated, well pated they are, have great credit, never involved in crime, volunteer their time to worthy causes and so on....

suggesting that just because someone is inked doesnt mean they are potentially bad renters. further implying that other inked individuals are also good renters.

Do you not understand that this is just as fallacious as suggesting that every person with body art is a hell's angel? The attributes of a single individual can not be used to describe a class. You have a good job? good for you. that doesnt mean everyone with a tattoo does.

Furthermore - the simple fact that you are a nice person who makes good money and pays their bills on time does NOT mean you are a good tenant. What if in addition to all these good things you like to listen to 2 live crew at the loudest volume setting of your monster stereo at 8am every morning? tattoos are just the same as such unusual taste in music. YOU may not think tattoos are a big deal - obviously you dont or you wouldnt have them - but not everyone may see things the same way. I happen to like 2 live crew - but not at 8 in the morning (i'm more of an up at the crack of noon sort of guy) - some others may not like 2 live crew at all.
 

    I don't think people should be worried about "other" people with tattoos.  We live in an era of tattoos and taboos.  So what if they have tattoos?  It doesn't make them bad people.  It doesn't make them unable to pay bills.  It doesn't make them evil mysterious people.  Well, O.k., maybe, but THIS IS AMERICA.  The home of the free....  FREE to do whatever you want to your own body as long as you don't harm someone else.      
These people need a place to live just like everyone else.  Don't they?  How dare you deny these people the right to pursue their happiness.  What are you thinking?  Do you like discriminate against AMERICANS to help the general public?  More importantly, these are Texans.  I encourage people to boycott your CALIFORNIA based apartments and affiliates.  If you're going to discriminate against Texans, take you business back to California. We don't want your stinking business here.

"S.A. Couple Branded As Bad Tenants Because Of Tattoos"

Where?

When?

What?

I read the article. Where is part where the offending tattoo lovers were "branded as Bad Tenants"? Where is the part where anybody utters the words "you're bad tenants" at?

A great adieu about nothing...

So all people who have tattoos are thugs, drug addicts, and other lowlifes which aren't allowed to rent an apartment?  What's next?  They can't go to college, go to the store, buy a car?  Well, have you looked at half of your precious Spurs?  If TIM DUNCAN, WHO HAS A HUGE TATTO ON HIS ARM, were to walk in and try and rent at this crap ass aprtment complex, they'd let him in with open arms!!!  But I guess that's OK with all you hypocrites that judge a person simply by their looks.

I think 2 Live Crew was twenty years ago. I think if you're living next to someone who bumps that every morning, you should direct your complaint to the Music Police.

Oh. Publius; you always know just what to say.

I LOVE tattoos and welcome tattooed people with open arms.


http://www.tattooremoval.org/


Come see me, I promise I want YOUR business!

Tattoo enthusiasts keep trying to convince us that it is becoming mainstream, but in professional circles it is still a flag of poor judgement or low class status to have prominent and garish tattoos. I doubt this will change. I expect the fad status of tattoos to move on and most of the fans will have their generation's silly trends bolted on permanently. Already they are rolling out new tattoo inks that are easily dissolved at a later date. This will lower the "scary-cool" status of tattoos a full notch.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/24/MNGLLN35S21.DTL

If we have to make an instant judgement about somebody, when we see a person exhibit poor eye contact, mouth breathing, cruddy or gang-related clothing, lots of visible tattoos or unconventional piercings, unkempt hair, neck beard, etc., we figure that person is bad news. Maybe they aren't - maybe they are bohemian hipsters that are really smart and their tattoos are full of deep meanings... But if you are judging a neighborhood or an apartment complex that you are about to move into with your family, who has the time to get to know every skanky looking dude walking around? Give me a break! Appearance counts and if you aren't a thug but you like to wear their uniform, then take the consequences.

The owner of these properties is a physician based in Orange County, California. His name is Edward B. Frankel and he believes that he should be allowed to rent to illegal immigrants (1) and that he shouldn't have to get wheelchair ramps installed for his rental offices (2) (luckily, he was told that he would have to do so [3]). He's such an upstanding citizen that he was featured in a book (4):
"In the Los Angeles area, Edward B. Frankel operated hair replacement centers under several different names. These were shut down in 1977 aafter a civil suit was filed against the companies by the California attorney general, Evelle J. Younger, who charged misleading advertisement. Frankel held himself out to be both a dermatologist and a board-certified plastic surgeon, but he was neither."

Yeah... he's a totally upstanding citizen who is just looking out for his tenants' best interests and never discriminates.

1. http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/carrollton/stories/122306dnmetfarmersbranch.35e79da8.html
2. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/tal174a.txt
3. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/tal174.txt
4. http://books.google.com/books?id=_gtCUiP0ZDUC&amp;pg=PA113&amp;lpg=PA113&amp;dq=%22edward+b+frankel%22&amp;source=web&amp;ots=PeRM9SUfW4&amp;sig=zD2vuYdcPc2sijJyc6V9dzR2EVc

On a personal note, not everyone obtains modifications to stand out and be "different" - every piercing and tattoo I have has been a rite of passage. Every modification I have has memories and emotions attached to it - all positive. I consider my body to be a living scrapbook in progress; a canvas for art. It's a choice I've made for myself and I'm perfectly fine with it. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it stems from my admiration for art & beauty and my desire to carry around my own art at all times... art that really is mine and only mine... art that means something to me and that reminds me of certain memories and lessons in my life.

In the last ten years, I have rented & owned property, been hired to jobs, dated (and am now engaged), attended school, and if anyone actually cared about my modifications - they never said a word. Part of having respect for your fellow human race is respecting their right to make their own choices, as long as those choices are not causing harm to others. Piercings & tattoos are not harming any of you, no matter how much you have convinced yourself otherwise. You may not like the way they look, but guess what that means? It means that you don't have to go out and get ink placed into or metal poked through your skin. That's YOUR choice. My choice is to be a walking work of art.

Those of you who wish to decry body modification have every right to do so, but it just shows off your own insecurities. Rather than raging about people's choice in how they express themselves, why not just accept that people are going to express themselves in ways different than your own? I personally don't like Picasso's paintings. Does that mean that I will lash out against those who do enjoy them and/or museums who house them? No. I will continue admiring the works of Degas and Renoir, instead. This doesn't mean I feel that people who DO enjoy Picasso's work are devoid of good taste in art, I just disagree with their preference.

This is absolutely unacceptable on the part of the apartment complex.   Whatever happened to just running a background and credit check on your tenants?  

You might not care for tattooing, but if you let them ban this, the next thing to be banned might be fat people, mullets, or the color red.    Having tats and piercings doesn't make you a bad person.   I have two body piercings and hot pink hair, and yet I was offered the CEO position in my company not once, but three times this year.   I turned it down because those men in suits who run the joint can't keep up with me.

Learn to see with your mind, not your eyes.

Wait. The only people who have tattoos are "Barrio babes" and "thugs?"

Oh crap! I've got to get me out of this professional school!

(And yes, your lawyer/doctor/local mad scientist probably has a tat or two. They're just hidden until people stop being jerkfaces about it.)

EVIL POP TART: Really? Are you that narrow minded that you wouldn't even be friends/date someone with tattoos? There's people of all races, tattooed or not, religions, etc. that have done and will continue to do horrible things to others. The heir to the Max Factor fortune (apologies, his name escapes me), was a clean cut, rich young man...yet he VIOLATED women by drugging them & raping them while usually video taping it. Also, I don't think Dahmer, the BTK killer, or John Wayne Gacey had any (or visible) tattoos. Really, it's all in individual actions. I've met complete jerks who are clean cut, and some of the nicest guys who have a full or 1/2 sleeves on their arm & vice versa. In my eyes it's usually better to get to know someone (cautiously - no matter what) than make judgements based on their appearance.

sorry but i dont like living around people who are heavily inked. there isnt *** in the constitution that will prorect you inked morons. they own the complex, its their rules.

im not a fan of 'body art' either. nothing about it is tasteful. picasso is tasteful, tattoos arent.

i dont see how anyone can compare fine art to body ink.

oh and read the article you morons. they will let you live there if you have tatts that arent visible. like the professionals who have one or 2 small hidden ones.

this douchebag is mad because hes all inked up and no one wants a thug loser living near them.

I've got a bunch to say about this. If tattoos are the issue, then what if a semi-famous or fully-famous sports personality with tattoos wanted to rent an apartment (not that they couldn't afford a house) then what would the issue be? Does it become economic at that point?? If so, then refer to the previous landlords records for those tenants. I know Gilbert and Melissa and I KNOW it wasn't economic...Gilbert works 7 days a week and makes good money!! He's probably the hardest working guy I know, a real stand-up guy. As far as those California landlords go...I guess they are "equal opportunity offenders" since they will keep all races from renting as long as they have tattoos. I guess maybe they will have to try to buy and rent property in California from now on instead of trying to scalp Texans!

I just want to say that "MayorPhill" doesn't speak for the Anglo community. I am a white guy that lives on the south-east side of town. I grew up on the west side where I was a minority. San Antonio is what it is, amigo. If you don't like living in a town steeped in Mexican culture then pack up and move to Alaska. I'm comfortable being a white guy here in SA and don't get any flack. People are people as long as you treat them as "people". Once you start pointing fingers and throwing out the "race card" then it gets ugly. Have a Lone Star and chill out.

I guess Timmy Duncan wouldn't be alowed to rent an apartment in this particular complex. He's got tats, you know? My nephew, who happens to be sweating his ass off in Iraq wouldn't get in either... I can't wait to move out of San Antonio.

gilbert's my best friend, a stand up guy, and a hard worker. i've known him all my life. i think it's funny that he's on cnn for this, yet i think it's important that we were all afforded the opportunity to witness the bigotry and/or ingorance that still goes on in this country and not just texas. we should all be enlightened by this story.
but i read a lot of the comments left on this page, and most of them annoyed me. it seems that people would rather argue with each other and belittle their comments rather than address the issue at hand...or at least leave tactful comments.
those who decry those with tattoos as being thuglike, brutish and uncivil--i fail to see the established and upright demeanors you profess to have in your words. no, you come off as boorish individuals who eerily rest on the brink of the names you call my friend. but how can i judge you? i don't even know you.

Hey, Peter...it isn't the Texans you have to worry about going to California. It's all you F***'ers from Cali that keep invading our beautiful hill country and driving up real estate prices. Let's make a deal...don't come to San Antonio, ***, and you won't have to look at our tattoos...how about that, amigo!

El-Gato Scott - I wrote a comment above that admonished those ranting about tattoos and other body modification. I was born and raised in California and while I've lived in many other places in our fine country (and outside of it, as well)... I got more dirty looks from people staring at my pink & blue hair, tattoos, and piercings while on a recent two-day roadtrip through Texas than I've received in the last YEAR in California (and that's a hell of a lot). This is not about California vs. Texas, though. This is about people EVERYWHERE who have a problem with body modification and who lack respect for their fellow man.

I completely disagree with the landlord's policy. I myself have several visible piercings and am getting some ink very soon. I also go to a $40,000 a year school with a A- GPA, have a full time job and soon to be getting a high paying office job. Tattoos shouldn't factor into how someone judges you, just like race or religion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a judgmental cretin.

Magdaline said:

"Oh. Publius; you always know just what to say."

I realize that everyone is entitled to her opinion, and I respect this. I also hope that you will all respect mine as you read this. Before I begin, let me point out that for Magdaline's contemptible plans to succeed, she needs to "dumb down" our society. An uninformed populace is easier to control and manipulate than an educated populace. In the near future, schoolchildren will stop being required to learn the meanings of words like "theologicohistorical" and "anthropomorphization". They will be incapable of comprehending that Magdaline has remarked that masochism is the key to world peace. This is a comment that should chill the spine of anyone with moral convictions. To make sure you understand, I'll spell it out for you. For starters, Magdaline keeps insisting that my bitterness at her is merely the latent projection of libidinal energy stemming from self-induced anguish. To me, there is something fundamentally wrong with that story. Maybe it's that if you've read any of the arrogant slop that Magdaline has concocted, you'll surely recall Magdaline's description of her plan to torment, harry, and persecute anyone who crosses her path. If you haven't read any of it, well, all you really need to know is that that's just one side of the coin. The other side is that if Magdaline doesn't like it here, then perhaps she should go elsewhere. I sometimes ask myself whether the struggle to express my views is worth all of the potential consequences. And I consistently answer by saying that Magdaline really struck a nerve with me when she said that her prevarications are our final line of defense against tyrrany. That lie is a painful reminder that Magdaline focuses on feelings rather than facts. Sure, she attempts to twist and distort facts to justify her feelings but that just goes to show that if Magdaline thinks her stances represent progress, she should rethink her definition of progress. To state it in a more sophisticated manner, Magdaline once tried convincing me that her opinions represent the opinions of the majority -- or even a plurality. Does she think I was born yesterday? I mean, it seems pretty obvious that Magdaline has stated that all minorities are poor, stupid ghetto trash. One clear inference from that statement -- an inference that is never really disavowed -- is that one can understand the elements of a scientific theory only by reference to the social condition and personal histories of the scientists involved. Now that's just disrespectful. Lest I forget to mention this later, in order to solve the big problems with her, we must first understand these problems, and to understand them, we must prevent the production of a new crop of the worst kinds of two-faced ne'er-do-wells there are.

Even Magdaline's satraps are afraid that Magdaline will compromise the things that define us, including integrity, justice, love, and sharing before long. I have seen their fear manifested over and over again, and it is further evidence that if the human race is to survive on this planet, we will have to develop an alternative community, a cohesive and comprehensive underground with a charter to rouse people's indignation at Magdaline. Her belief systems were never about tolerance and equality. That was just window dressing for the "innocents". Rather, we must learn to celebrate our diversity, not because it is the politically correct thing to do, but because she just keeps on saying, "I don't give a [expletive deleted] about you. I just want to monopolize the press."

It is cowardice on Magdaline's part to take control of a nation and suck it dry. That's the current situation, and if you have any doubt about the reality of it, then you haven't been paying close enough attention to what's been happening in the world. One of Magdaline's deputies keeps throwing "scientific" studies at me, claiming they prove that everything Magdaline says is absolutely and utterly true. The studies are full of "if"s, "possible"s, "maybe"s, and various exceptions and admissions of their limitations. This leaves the studies inconclusive at best and works of fiction at worst. The only thing these studies can possibly prove is that if you intend to challenge someone's assertions, you need to present a counterargument. Magdaline provides none. It is important to differentiate between muddleheaded wisenheimers and bad-tempered irrationalism enthusiasts who, in a variety of ways, have been lured by her reckless précis or who have ended up wittingly or unwittingly in coalitions with her companions or who maintain contact with Magdaline as part of serious and legitimate research.

Magdaline may be reasonably cunning with words. However, she is entirely yellow-bellied with everything else. Her pledge not to contravene decency is merely empty rhetoric, invoked on occasion for theatrical effect but otherwise studiously ignored. If you can make any sense out her depraved pranks, then you must have gotten higher marks in school than I did. Magdaline's smears are just a rhetorical ploy to get away from the obvious fact that Magdaline's stories about egotism are particularly ridden with errors and distortions, even leaving aside the concept's initial implausibility. By excluding any possibility of comparison, Magdaline can easily pass off her own perceptions as works of genius, as if it made any difference. While it is not my purpose to incriminate or exculpate or vindicate or castigate, overweening schmoes are born, not made. That dictum is as unimpeachable as the "poeta nascitur, non fit" that it echoes and as irreproachable as the brocard that Magdaline's ratiocination skills are nothing to write home about. But the problems with Magdaline's smear tactics don't end there.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, Magdaline says that the best way to serve one's country is to turn once-flourishing neighborhoods into zones of violence, decay, and moral disregard. That's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying that human life is expendable. A central fault line runs through each of her deeds. Specifically, she does not tolerate any view that differs from her own. Rather, Magdaline discredits and discards those people who contradict her along with the ideas that they represent. To quote the prophet Isaiah, "Woe to ye who authorize, promote, celebrate, and legitimize unbridled antidisestablishmentarianism". You may be worried that Magdaline will tell everyone else what to do in a lustrum or two. If so, then I share your misgivings. But let's not worry about that now. Instead, let's discuss my observation that Magdaline is planning to force us to tailor our politics just to suit her obscene whims. This does not bode well for the future, because she somehow manages to get away with spreading lies (the health effects of secondhand smoke are negligible), distortions (she can override nature), and misplaced idealism (she has a duty to conceal the facts and lie to the rest of us, under oath if necessary, perjuring herself to help disseminate the True Faith of revanchism). However, when I try to respond in kind, I get censored faster than you can say "plethysmographically".

I've heard of spiteful things like snobbism and obstructionism. But I've also heard of things like nonviolence, higher moralities, and treating all beings as ends in and of themselves -- ideas which Magdaline's ignorant, unthinking, vitriolic brain is too small to understand. Whenever anyone states the obvious -- that Magdaline makes so many laughably ghastly statements, it boggles the mind to think about them -- discussion naturally progresses towards the question, "Is Magdaline a professional simpleton or merely a well-meaning amateur?" I'll tell you what I think the answer is. I can't prove it, but if I'm correct, events soon will prove me right. I think that Magdaline is an opportunist. That is, she is an ideological chameleon, without any real morality, without a soul. By brainwashing her faithfuls with antipluralism, she makes them easy to lead, easy to program, and easy to enslave. Does Magdaline do research before she reports things, or does she just guess and hope she's right? The reason I ask is that ignorance is bliss. This may be why Magdaline's provocateurs are generally all smiles.

Maybe in a matter of days, Magdaline will grant inimical flakes the keys to the kingdom. Out-of-touch predictions aside, this would not be an impossible scenario if her mumpish editorials were to gain ascendancy in our society. The bulk of disgusting dunderheads are at least marginally tolerable, but not she. I truly cannot emphasize enough how much I resent her beliefs. If you want a better opportunity to get a job, raise a family in a safe neighborhood, have a better chance at a good education, and lower the taxes on the money you earn, then I ask that you help me identify, challenge, defy, disrupt, and, finally, destroy the institutions that make nearby communities victims of environmental degradation and toxic waste dumping. For what it's worth, Magdaline has a glib proficiency with words and very sensitive nostrils. She can smell money in your pocket from a block away. Once that delicious aroma reaches Magdaline's nostrils, she'll start talking about the joy of philistinism and how we should avoid personal responsibility. As you listen to Magdaline's sing-song, chances are you won't even notice her hand as it goes into your pocket. Only later, after you realize you've been robbed, will you truly understand that a colleague recently informed me that a bunch of incorrigible, venom-spouting dingbats and others in Magdaline's amen corner are about to force us to bow down low before damnable heresiarchs. I have no reason to doubt that story because there is no doubt that Magdaline will support hostile governments known for human rights abuses, wrongful imprisonment, and slavery one of these days. Believe me, I would give everything I own to be wrong on that point, but the truth is that it is my job -- and your job, too -- to remind Magdaline about the concept of truth in advertising. I'll say that again, because I want it to sink in: I, having repeatedly witnessed Magdaline marginalize and eventually even outlaw responsible critics of inerudite worrywarts, contend that I have every right to refer to her as an ornery, uncompromising cult leader. Magdaline has the nerve to call those of us who build a world overflowing with compassion and tolerance "conspiracy theorists". No, we're "conspiracy revealers" because we reveal that Magdaline is the most treacherous, jackbooted, and infernal waste of genetic material in our society. Yes, I could add that her assumptions are matched in their untenability only by the arrogant fervor with which they are held, but I wanted to keep my message simple and direct. I didn't want to distract you from the main thrust of my message, which is that if Magdaline believes that she commands an army of robots that live in the hollow center of the earth and produce earthquakes whenever they feel like shaking things up a bit on the surface, then it's obvious why she thinks that she is the ultimate authority on what's right and what's wrong.

Magdaline is typical of froward curmudgeons in her wild invocations to the irrational, the magic, and the fantastic to dramatize her antics. On the issue of neocolonialism, she is wrong again. Sure, outrage pounded in my temples when I first realized that Magdaline wants to make people weak and dependent. But recidivism is dangerous. Magdaline's litigious version of it is doubly so. She speaks like a true defender of the status quo -- a status quo, we should not forget, that enables her to subordinate all spheres of society to an ideological vision of organic community. Magdaline is driving me nuts. I can't take it anymore!

Magdaline has long served as a cheerleader for solipsism. An equal but opposite observation is that nonrepresentationalism doesn't work. So why does Magdaline cling to it? You know the answer, don't you? You probably also know that Magdaline knows how to lie. It's too bad she doesn't yet understand the ramifications of lying. Need I point out that you can observe a definite bias in Magdaline's histrionics relating to unctuous stumblebums? Magdaline should hide her head in shame before the judgment of future generations, whose tongue it will no longer be possible to stop and which, therefore, will say what today all of us know to be true: Some reputed -- as opposed to reputable -- members of Magdaline's peuplade quite adamantly insist that Magdaline should create some immoral, pseudo-psychological profile of me to discredit my opinions because "it's the right thing to do". I find it rather astonishing that anyone could maintain such a thing, but then again, as long as the beer keeps flowing and the paychecks keep coming, Magdaline's helpers don't really care that the irony is that her most loquacious "compromises" are also her most grumpy. As the French say, "Les extremes se touchent."

Although Magdaline won't admit it, every time she gets caught trying to muddy the word "unconstitutionality", she promises she'll never do so again. Subsequently, her patsies always jump in and explain that she really shouldn't be blamed even if she does, because, as they think, she answers to no one. Most of her criticisms are slanted in the same ideological fashion, with large amounts of emotional exaggeration and general ignorance. As long as I live, I will be shouting this truth from rooftops and doing everything I can to face our problems realistically, get to the root of our problems, and be determined to solve them. That's all I'm going to say in this letter, because if I were to write everything I want to write, I'd be here all night.

Some of you in here simply amaze me. It's as though some of you close your eyes as tight as possible, put your hands over your ears and then proceed to make loud, repetitive noises with your mouth. Not all individuals that are heavily tattooed qualify in the realm of "thugs, gansta's, and so on."  I don't like ignorant, stupid people, like many that have slopped their narrow minded opinions here, but I'd probably still give you a chance to pay me rent. I have a lot of tattoos, including on my hands and neck, so yes, I am biased on the matter. However, I am not the one slinging bile at people for not having tattoos. Your skin is boring as all get out to me, but I don't have disdain for you for having a lack or artistic flair on your skin.
I'm thanking my lucky stars right now that I live in Hollywood, California. I go somewhere here and am still treated with respect. Maybe they assume I could be a highly successful artist or musician. In my case, they would be correct.
I'm sure writing this is completely pointless. I can already feel the hands going to the ears again. At least when you're doing that, you're not making more babies to further dumb down the world.

Will the 1st person here to actually read the diatribe from Publius....
please stand up

please stand up

I'm a United States Marine with many tattoos .... I'll be damned if I'm classified as a thug because i have some body are. The people who own this apartment complex must be the age of about 99. Times change.... Get with the program.

amazingly this is what we fight for sometimes....
ignorance.....

Semper Fidelis  
Americas 911 Force

Yeah, this isn't even a racial topic at all...Gilbert's money is just as green as everyone else's. BOTTOM LINE! END OF STORY!

Will the 1st person here to actually read Publius's long winded diatribe...

please stand up


please stand  

Not that this inked professional business owner has to worry about it: I set the "personal appearance" standards in my office and own my own home. But I wouldn't personally want to rent from people who think simply having body art makes you "thuggish" or live around people with that mindset, so I think it's a good policy.

There's really nothing wrong with policies that filter out "jerks I don't want to have for neighbors," no matter what side of the issue you're on.

Discriminate on!

This incident just supports the age old supposition that Texas is full of rednecks.

Madisonian is right, and while I'm not local to San Antonio, I am a mad scientist, or at least I will be when I finish getting my Ph.D. in Chemistry from a very good private university in the midwest.  I have multiple tattoos, but they are all on my back and are usually covered.  My visible modifications consist of 11 facial piercings (my earlobes are stretched to 7/16'' in diameter).  I also have a purple mohawk, and during the day I build molecules on computer chips using chemistry that most of the people talking about how people with tattoos are "thugs" couldn't even begin to comprehend.  

I was accepted into my program before they even saw me, and am still here several years later.  This school (and several others) offered to pay me a very nice yearly salary, give me free tuition, train me, and give me a Ph.D. with their name forever following me in my career without ever having seen me.  All they did was read my application, letters of recommendation, and saw my transcripts. If an academic institution that is going to have me working with dangerous chemicals doesn't care what I look like, then why should a manager of an apartment complex care what the people who give him money look like?  I realize that everyone is allowed to have their own opinions, but it seems kind of silly not to take someones money just because you don't like the fact that they have visible/multiple tattoos.  

If any of you are wondering what the faculty reaction was when they did see me, I can happily tell you that they didn't even bat an eye.  Then again, they do have their Ph.D.'s in chemistry, and it doesn't take a genius to know that ink in your skin and metal in your face doesn't necessarily correlate to what kind of a person you are.  Oh, and to those of you who talk about the fact that tattoos can imply you've been in prison (and gotten prison tattoos) I would like to point out the fact that a blind monkey would be able to show you the difference between a prison tat, and a tattoo from a halfway decent shop.

The last thing I want to say is that I find it interesting that most of the well written posts by modified people have largely been ignored by the "tattooed/pierced people are bad" camp.  I wonder why that is?

I disagree with such discrimination when it occurs. It is human nature to be wary based on our past experiences and what we perceive in our world, however we must not allow these things to be the sole factor in any decision.

I am a twenty-six-year-old male, tattooed and pierced.
I have only been on time with my rent once... the rest were early (once by just shy of a month.)  I get up every weekday morning and go to work where I make medical appliances talk to each other.  If five or six of you in Texas have cancer and are reading this, chances are one of you is benefitting from my work (especially over there in San Antonio).  I work hard and live an honest life. I have volunteered and will continue to do so as time allows. I am a fulltime student working on an engineering degree, I'm multilingual, I'm a band member, and I work... hard, as I have since I was thirteen years old.

i must admit, I hate the "grills" or what-have-you; they're not for me and I don't think they look good. However, I don't think it would ever be right of me not to have dealings with a person because of it. You're welcome to dislike any piercings or tattoos I have, but I expect the same treatment as I would give you.

As I read through the comments, I find myself more and more disappointed both by those enforcing the stereotypes (some baited, some on their own,) as well as those believing in them.  Why is it so hard to accept that some of us with body art are truely hard-working, caring individuals?  I must admit that I find the argument stating (loosely) that if God wanted us to have tattoos, we would have them.  I could make that same argument for cars, computers, clothing... anything not explicitly in raw, organic form.  I don't say that because of any particular religious belief at all, either, but rather because the argument seems a bit dubious.

I want more tattoos and more piercings. Don't judge me negatively because of this; judge me for who I am.  Credit check? I'll pass it with flying colours. I even have a reccomendation from my previous apartment complex because of the "excellent and amazing" condition in which I left the place.  I demand that my guests show respect to my neighbours and are not loud, obnoxious, littering fools.  I'm they guy who stops on the side of the road when you need help changing a tire, I'm the guy who looks out for his neighbours, and I'm the guy who really wants equality for everyone regardless of gender, race, religion, or appearance.

Cheers, and my sincerest hope to open minds for understanding and equality.

Wow,what a bunch of narrow-minded assholes.I would be very concerned if this sort of thing became wide-spread across the US.I currently have 13 tattoos,3 piercings and plan on getting more as I feel like it.I have a high-paying job,have been with the same landlord for the past 5 years,have never committed a crime/ joined a gang,pay my bills, am a respected international artist & member of my community,don't cause trouble, volunteer at animal shelters & my kids' school in my free time.Body mods have been around as far back as the Bronze Age.It's not a new phenomenon yet people act so shocked,I don't understand such thinking.It remains to be one of the most common forms of expressing individuality and continues to be popular as time goes on.I met a lady who was 65 years old before she got her 1st tattoo.It is something that people from ALL walks of life enjoy and should be allowed to continue to do.It is a personal, life-long choice to mark or pierce one's body and it is a shame that this society scrutinizes anything outside of the 'norm' or that is different.Man would that SUCK if everyone thought/looked/acted the same! Some of the best people I know have lots of body art/piercings.Open your minds once in a while.There's a great big world out there beyond your little white picket fence,2 + kids,trophy wife and SUV.The property is owned by this guy and I understand that they can look elsewhere but this couple should totally go forth and sue him for discrimination,if only on principal alone.

....Chicago,IL

I've had a nice 6 figure income for over 8 years and Im not even 30.
I have several tattoo's and have always paid my bills on time.
I am college educated and have never been arrested.
I choose to use ink and piercings.. just like rednecks choose to be ignorant.
We have to tolerate and live you with..
Hopefully soon however my people will out number yours.

It makes me sick to read the comments on this place,
and I no longer wonder how we got stuck with a completely moronic war monger for president.
Thanks for ruining my country with your bigotry and stupidity a little more each day.

STAN>>>>>>> You obviously didn't understand my post.  In simple terms.   They are being prejiduce by denying occupancy just because you have tattoos.  It is their pre determination that if you have a tattoo you are associated with negative activities and or lifestyles.  That is Prejiduce.  So no I do not disgrace my uniform.  People like these apartment owners disgrace our nation.  If they want to ban those of us with tattoos then they should ban fat people as well.  This is no different than denying occupancy to someone because they are yellow.  *i.e because all yellow people are gangsters and do drugs* (just an example)  This one is taking it to far.  People wonder why there's still violence and a lack of unity amongst us in this nation.  Here's a great example of why.

One last thing you say that tattoos reflect low class and ignorance.  Ever heard of "Sean P.diddy combs".  He's a multimillionaire owns his own clothing company, music production agency and probaby has more money and success than any of you dumb ass's without tattoos.  Get on our level.  Oh and while most of you are complaining and hating tattoos.  If you have kids.  If they don't already and are just hiding it.  They'll have a one by the age of 18 guaranteed.

No one cares if you are a nice, high earning, vet, etc.,l I'm glad you are but none of that has anything to do with the issue.   It is about money and image.  An apartment would not appear as "up scale" to the general public if a visit to the pool revealed a bunch of tattooed bodies.  Those apartments percieved as up scale get to fill up with up scale rental rates.  The owners are not setting these rules because they don't like you or your tatoos, it is the image that is protrayed that they feel would damage their bottom line.  They are in the business to make money.

It is amazing to me that many of the people that are screaming about intolerance are so intolerant themselves.  They can be free to do what they want with what is theirs yet others are not free to do what they want with their possessions, like apt buildings.  Some have suggested that people that don't like tattoos should just die as soon as possible.  Could anyone be any less tolerant?

Norma said it best.  Thank you Norma.
Also: while many tattoo artists use new (sterile) needles for each client, they often use the same ink well for multiple clients.  This practice can spread germs (Alcohol is a low-level disenfectant and kills very few germs)  This is why tattoos are considered a big risk factor for Hepatitis C.  
So, getting tattoos (sorry all you $100K producing, law abiding tattood!) is just ignorant and dangerous!
I agree with the landlord's decision and Norma's rationale.  

Wait until the year 2045 when our next president will be up at the podium sporting a nose ring and tarp grommets in his earlobes

Anna:

You are ignorant.  Very very ignorant.  Again stereotypical and prejiduce.

my small town has 6 tatoo parlors , 5 peircing ??? , 3 fulltime tatoo removal Drs , and a lot of stupid  trashy dirty diseased freaks who completely fit every negiative concept you ever encounterd with same ...
the large stupident population is already learning how much tats and peircings cost them while they are still in school...
go to a job fair with a lot of tats/peircings and watch your chances of even being talked to go in the sh!tter...
you want to look like a meskin banger , you'll pay the price in more ways than one ...
don't like it ? , too dam'd bad ...
you're stuck with it since you chose to look like criminal counterculture freak filth...
oh yeah , you can act like a badass , goth/emo/freak/nor-sur/whatever ...
it doesn't mean we have suck up to you , live near you , or employ you... your choice...

Wait. Anna.

Did you just say that people are ignorant for getting tattoos because tattoo artists use the same inkwell and that may spread disease? And that because there was an infinitesimal chance that someone could get a bloodborne disease while getting a tattoo at a shop that uses substandard cleaning practices, you think that it's a good idea that people who have tattoos -- many of which are several years old and, if they had brought with them some form of disease, that disease would have manifested itself long ago -- -should- be declined an "upscale residence"?

Wow. The force of your reasoning is like a hurricane, before which the arguments of those of us who have tattoos are tossed asunder like ragdolls at a 4-year-old girl's birthday party. Have you ever considered law school?

Anna:

When is the last time you got a tattoo?

Every tattoo artist I have been to in the past 5 years has used individual plastic cups to place the ink in that are then thrown away.

People who don't get tattoo's are generally completely ignorant to the methods of tattooing and sterilization and are also ignorant to the types of people who get tattooed. For instance, me. I am sitting in Mission Control at NASA right now...monitoring the International Space Station...with two upper arm sleeves, two lower leg sleeves, a full back piece and a recently done chest piece that goes from shoulder to shoulder down to my sternum. People who refuse to open themselves to the culture of tattoos, even if they never get one, will never know or fully understand what it is all about and will never know the people behind the art.

As for the apartment complex, that's life. I would imagine, from reading some of the articles on this news site, that the apartment owners are worried about the MULTITUDE OF GANG MEMBERS that roam the streets there. I wouldn't want punk gang members living in my complex. If they use tattoos to distinguish between gang members and non-gang members, they're idiots, but it probably works very efficiently.

If we aren't allowed to practice our prejudices, how are we free?

Redeux:

Have you considered that your "small town" may not be indicative of the general population of pierced/tattooed individuals? I grew up in a trashy suburb where about 50% of the city had at least one visible tattoo. They also only eked their way through high school so they could get a job in a factory. Unfortunately, those jobs were outsourced and many of them are currently unemployed or working at fast food restaurants. Now I live in a state capital where about 50% of the city has at least one visible tattoo. This city is consistently rated as one of the best places in the country to live, and the average education level is post-undergraduate. Amazing how the same tattoo demographics can have vastly different results. Mayhaps the tattoo:education/hireability ratio is overstated.

Additionally, allow me to suggest to you Firefox, a web browser with a built-in spell checker. It may help to make you look less like an undereducated, narrow-minded person and simply make you look narrow-minded.

Why is it discrimination?  You aren't BORN with tattoos, you chose to get them.  Therefore, A company should have the right now to hire you, or house you.

It may be stupid, but not discrimination.  OH WAIT...this is San Antonio where everyone entitlement is key.  So they are certainly entitled to free rent.  Get it on it Trouble Makers...I mean...Shooters.

The key concept here is one of personal property rights.  If you want to get tattoos, that is your right.  Just keep in mind there is a downside to that decision (like we are seeing here).  If the apartment property owner does not want to rent to people with tattoos, that is their right.  Remember, they OWN the property.  The right to own personal property is very important to our society.  Look at it this way:  those of you who want to get tattoos certainly don't want anyone telling you that you can't.  Its the same for the apartment owners - they own the property, they should be able to decide who they want to rent to, shouldn't they?  Seems fair to me.

People with tattoos are thugs.  Since when did we as Americans accept complete losers?

I think it's great.  I hate tattoos.  It's just horrible to go into a restaurant and then plops down beside you some guy with tats all over his arms and neck.  Keep them out of sight.

I don't care about the stupid culture of tattoos.  I just don't want to see it.

Some of you need to take a law class of some sort.  Madisonian the example that you have given with comparing tattoos with education level is needless to say is not indicative of the masses.  There is a reason why there is a stereotype with people with tattoos.  How do you think it got started.  I know that the reason why that it is my first impression is because most people that have tattoos like that dude did are scumbags.  Not all, but the majority and I am not talking 51% lol.  You giving your city as an example is like drawing a scattergram and your city being the anomaly.  The apartment had every right to turn them down.  They would even have the right to turn them down if there tattoo was religious in nature because they are turning down every type of tattoo (that they have determined to be excessive).  I don't like tattoos, I don't hate them.  I do feel that there are many people that can have tattoos that are classy and dont look like trailer trash as most do.  However, fair or not, we don't live in a perfect world and when you go to have something done like this to your body think ahead, don't just do it because your group of 10-15 people you know all have them or simply because you are from a lower income area.  If you want to be treated with professionalism show some.

Less release all people with tattoos out of the military and see who will fight the wars for this country.

Although i will agree it is the owners property its a shortsighted policy. I also have tattoos i have a bachelors degree, i work for the school system and i am currently working on my masters degree as well. I will soon be one of those making pretty decent money i may never be rich but im responsible and not a criminal in the least, i keep quiet and prefer my neighbors to do the same. Yet this jackhole wouldnt rent to me if i decided to rent from him which i personally dont car because i wouldnt want to live anywhere that thought tattoos were some sign of being a thug. It boils down to this couple did get their money back which is good and just moving on. Make sure everyone knows the only people that can live there are those that have no tattoos.

Joe:

That is the essence of the Law. However, that extends only to certain extents. For instance, a property owner can't refuse rental to a black person because he/she is black. The difference is the choice of the person to get tattoos. Obviously a black person can't choose to be black.

One may say then, "what about religion, you choose to be a certain religion". That may be the case, however the courts have decided to include religion in the protected class. Which ultimately makes sense.

Nonetheless, you hit the essence of the law in this case.

My husband and I both have tatoos and work for very prominent companies.  His do not show as he knows that there is a limit at work.  Yet his ear is pierced and there is never anything said about that.  He is not a "young adult;" he is almost 50.  I enjoy the tatoos that he gets as they all have meaning behind them... family!  I am in my early 40's and didn't start getting tatoos until my late 30's.  I enjoy them as they have the same meaning for me.. family and love.  Where I work I wear capri pants and sleeveless shirts and 3 of my 6 tatoos show and I have never had a problem with my employer.  

This crap of not renting to someone who has tatoos is completely out there!  That is total discrimination against him and how he chooses to live his life.  He probably has a good job and can at least make the monthly rental payments.  More than some can say as some people are either late or get evicted for not making the payment.  Why should he be denied because of his appearance?  He should also get his application fee returned since he was basically denied.  I would absolutely sue this complex for this type of treatment.  

People who "frown" on those of us who have tatoos don't know us and judge us before they even try to know who we are as people.  That is being judgemental and discriminatory and those people should look in the mirror.  They are probably just jealous at the fact that they never followed through with their ambitions in life and did something daring.  Take some risks.. you would see that we aren't bad people, have great jobs and love our families.  Get off your high horse cause we aren't going away.  

Such a non-issue, and so simple ...

Tattoos are a personal choice.  Personal choices have consequences, some good, some bad.  I know good people with tattoos and not so good people with tattoos.  For me personally, tattoos don't matter.  

Landlords are private parties who can decide to whom they wish to rent and can exercise those decisions so long as they don't run afoul of laws preventing certain specified forms of descrimination.  A landlord can say, "no smokers, no pets, no renters with bell bottoms, no Yankee fans, and no tattoos," and not violate any laws.

Might that decision be stupid and shortsighted?  Sure.  The landlord has that right.

I think it's getting pretty trite for the "younger, hip" generation to automatically dismiss those of us that don't agree with them as "ignorant" and "prejudice" [sic].  

People have differing opinions, like it or not.  

And call it unfair or whatever you want, but people will always judge a person on their appearance.  Human society will never be blind in the way that it "should" be.  

Tattoos, popular as they have become in the last decade, will always likely be looked down upon.  This type of discrimination is totally legal - tattooed people are not a protected or suspect class under the Constitution of Texas or the United States.  

Get over it.  If you don't like it, live somewhere else.  End of story.

tsktsk said "No wonder Europeans are still decades ahead of us!!!"

Wow - REALLY?  In what category????  Their MULTICULTURAL acceptance?  That is a real hoot.  Let me guess....their prosperity?  Personal freedom....please tell me  - in what way is Europe "decades" ahead of us???

Nothing wrong with this.  It is not illegal, nor should it be.  Tattoos are a choice, not an immutable characteristic.  Therefore, there is no Constitutional protection that should attach.  If you choose to look like a hoodlum, then you can bear the consequences.  I'm all for it 100%.

Apartment Managers are assholes, for the most part.

Bob:

Would I be wrong to say the same thing about someone wearing a Cowboys jersey because I am a Steelers fan and I hate the Cowboys?

It seems your ideal society lives in your head. Why don't we all just dress and think like you?

JANE:

Have you read my previous comments?

Do you think I am a thug? Right now I am monitoring the power system on the most expensive thing man has ever built or seen, the International Space Station. Am I a thug because I have a lot of tattoos?

You, ma'am, are a complete dolt.

And for the record, I am a staunch CONSERVATIVE. So some of the people's comments on hating conservatives are generally idiotic too.

It's a dumb thing to do to your body, but go right ahead.  The issue is that others are turned off and disgusted by what you think is artful and attractive.

I think this fashion will pass and die down to what it once was.. for sailors and bikers and others who want to be tagged as outsiders.

It's a shame what some people do to perfectly attractive bodies and actually think it is cool or attractive.  Goes to show how ignorant and tasteless people can be.

It's their bod... I just don't want to have anything to do with the people who inhabit those bods.

Of COURSE they don't want to rent to these adolecent reprobates.

Have you EVER met someone with a pierced tongue/eyebrow/(whatever), who wasn't a bratty, immature, social malcontent?

People with these 'acting out' behaviors are ALWAYS looking for trouble.  They're thugish, self-agrandizing, anti-social jerks looking for attention.

Don't want to rent to them?  Heck, I don't want them in my state.

When you own the sandbox you get to set the rules........ If you don't like it buy a set of apartments and only rent to people with Tatoos...... I like the rule but then I'm a redneck simpleton or so I've been called.

Good for them!

As an employer, when I see a woman with a tatoo anywhere on the body, I immediately think "trailer trash skank". And women those who think it's "young and hip", wait until your forty or fifty, people will avoid you like the plague. You mindless puppets watch your hereos on MTV doing it and you follow like mindless sheep!

I'm glad to see the owners of this apartment complex stand up for what they believe in.  They have a right to sell their product whatever way they want.  Contrary to the belief of those who think they have to make their bodies "art", tattoos were for MANY years something that mostly criminals, bikers and uneducated people wore.  Now that it's "in style" that doesn't mean that those perceptions suddenly stop.  Appearance does matter, and the apartment complex has a right to market their product the way they want.  If people with tattoos and piercings don't like it, they can find many other places to live where it is not a policy.

actions have consequenses, smart and dumb actions.

Its wierd to me that people like some of the first posters on this page really exist in the world.  I thought your kind was relegated to Saturday Night Live skits and Sunday newspaper comics.

I've got a "real" job, I pay my bills on time and I have tattoos.  You should come and meet me.

Not Illegal!  

Now, what's the problem.  You guys are being big babies about your tattoos.  You shouldn't have gotten them in the first place!  

My wife and I find tattoos so distasteful that we tip waitresses less if they show obvious tattoos . I am a landlord and I think I would reject a heavily tattooed prospect.

I think if people are going to vandalize their own body, then they might decide they want to paint the apartment complex with thier "art".  Also, read all of the blogs of people who are mad about this, they are obviously violent, angry people.  Why would you want someone like that to live in your complex.  Get a clue tatoo people.  A tatoo is just something that shows what's going on inside somebody's head.  Crazyness.  (And yes I admit that is a false generalization).  

I think it's pretty ridiculous that people judge on appearances.  I'm so sick of living in a world that's so unaccepting of everyone and everything just becasue it's differnt than them.  If we were all the same, this world would be a boring  place.  I thought we were supposed to be living in a country where we have the freedom to express ourselves...It really makes me sick that people are so close minded in this country.  

Property owners can do what they want with their property, at least for now.  Whether it's fair or unfair is irrelevant.  Whether the owners are assholes is irrelevant.  Property owners should be allowed to be assholes and make unfair decisions about their property.  Sadly, the day is likely coming when that won't be true.  Witness smoking bans.  Business owners used to be able to make that decision about their businesses, but that is going away.  I don't smoke, if I had a choice between restaurants that do and don't allow it I'd choose the latter.  But taking that right away from a business owner is wrong.  It's wrong for apartment owners to be forbidden to make similar decisions about those regarding tattoos as well.

If I can't live in an all-adult apartment complex, they can't discriminate against tattoos.  Age has nothing to do with race or religion either.

That being said, since we live in the age of the housing association and people believing they have the legal right to dictate the aesthetics of their neighbor's homes - this is no different. Tattoos are an aesthetic choice. If the property is privately owned, they have every right to decide that tattoos are not aesthetically pleasing. These are the same laws that get you in trouble if you don't mow your yard or you put up a flag or you paint the place pink.

If you want to keep the legal right to prevent your neighbor from putting up an American flag - then you have to live with the idea of no-tattoo apartment complexes.

Wow.  I've never read such a racists bunch of comments in my entire life!  First off, for most, getting tattoos is a sacred ritual.  Not everyone is just getting their "boyfriend's/girlfriend's" name tattooed on their body.  I have four tattoos.  Each one has a spiritual meaning for me even if it isn't a commonly recognized religious belief.  Second, not everyone who gets tattoos isn't white.  I'm white.  

I guess people in Texas, including the liberal (as in freedom of speech, liberal) are complete bigots and jack asses.

I'm glad you view the younger generation as such.  Glad that we're teaching people to be open-mined.

Oh, and for the record, not only am I white with a MASTERS DEGREE, I am also a woman.

ConservativeGuy - The only way to get rid of that perception is to start accepting people not based on their appearance, but on legitimate credentials. If the guy has a legitimate job, good credit history, good references from past landlords, and the ability to pay rent... then why should it matter what he LOOKS like? He was obviously dressed respectively enough during the first visit that he knows how to impress and is well-groomed (from what I could see)... so why is that any different than telling a black man that all black people are thugs and gangstas, so you don't want them living near you either? It's discrimination based on appearance, regardless of what the appearance is. Due to the growing prevalence in today's society of body modification present on young professionals, I guarantee that the tide will be turning in our favor in the future and that while this isn't quite illegal discrimination now... just wait for a modification-friendly judge (with his/her own tattoos and/or a kid with piercings) to rule it as being so ;)

I am on the side of the land lords.

I view the "now" look as dumb and any move to discorage the spread of
mass stupidity is a good sign.

I am opossed to the counter culture.

Hank

The trend in our society: people act and assume no reaction. Just because you don't find tattoos to be offensive, distasteful, "thuggish" etc, etc., doesn't mean others will not. For the most part, I could care less about inked up people; the trend is so cliched now that I expect people to have the most unoriginal inkstain plastered somewhere on their body. But they should realize that not everyone has grown accustomed to the trend, nor should they.

The trend in our society: people act and assume no reaction. Just because you don't find tattoos to be offensive, distasteful, "thuggish" etc, etc., doesn't mean others will not. For the most part, I could care less about inked up people; the trend is so cliched now that I expect people to have the most unoriginal inkstain plastered somewhere on their body. But they should realize that not everyone has grown accustomed to the trend, nor should they.

I think the tattooed need some cheese to go with their whine.  

...and those that are quoting the law (many of you) need to make sure you get it correct before you speak up.  

There are really no analogies here, other than perhaps refusing to rent to blad people, ugly people, etc.  Plain and simple: so long as it's not a pretext for another kind of discrimination, discrimination based on appearance is completely constitutional.

Boo hoo.

You want to go out and get tattoos so you look like a bad-ass? Go ahead, but don't cry when society "treats you differently". You asked for it.

USA is still a free country isn't it?  This is a privately owned apartment complex isn't it?  They should be allowed to set the standards for their complex.  If that means no nose rings, then no nose rings. NO pit bulls , then no pit bulls.  Those people who want tatoos are free to have them but that doesn't mean someone has to rent to them or give them a job.

This reminds me of the story of the woman in Home Depot who saw a man with tatoos and peircings running around wild-eyed in the store.  She quickly walked away from him and, moments later, saw a beautiful little 3 yr old girl in a pink dress and pigtails standing alone.  Thinking of the "crazy looking man" running around, she debated whether or not to stay with the little girl.  A moment later, the man dashed passed her, grabbed the little girl, and said "Don't do that! You scared daddy to death, honey. A bad man could have taken you from me!"  The little girl grabbed her father and said, "Sorry Daddy."  The woman decided never again to judge a book by it's cover.

All of you terrible people with your prejudiced attituted should take a lesson from this story.  Shame on you.
Written from a tatooed mother of two, one daughter and one son with Autism.

"Also, read all of the blogs of people who are mad about this, they are obviously violent, angry people."

I'm not violent or angry in the slightest. In fact, I'm probably the most non-violent person I know - and the most violent are those WITHOUT tattoos/piercings/etc. I'm just shocked that people could be so crassly ignorant as to believe that tattoos automatically make a person bad news. It's stereotypes like this - and the one that Craig is perpetuating - that are the real issue here.

I could sit here and list all of the community-based projects I've been involved within, over the last decade and a half, but as Roman said above... you have your hands over your ears and your eyes tightly shut, so it's not like you'd take that information into account anyway. You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

I think it is obvious that most of the posters of the comments on this website are over 50 years old and are "get off my lawn" prone.

The younger generation, those who embrace tattoos for the most part, are paying your social security you ungrateful hermits.

Jennifer- A "modification-friendly judge" would most likely be the type of judge to rule this as discrimination- since there is no legal justification for your position, only a judge would decide to make law as opposed to judging law. But then again, that's probably the cool thing to do as well.

USA- heeeeeeeeeeeeee goooooooooone!

"Ann said:
I think it's pretty ridiculous that people judge on appearances."

Grow up, Ann.  You can't remain a teenager forever.  You judge people on their appearances just as much as anyone else.

Looking like a malcontent dirt-bag is a free choice.  Dress like a tramp?  Guess what? You'll be treated like a tramp.

It's a fact of life.  Welcome to adulthood.

"...people in Texas... are complete jack-asses and bigots"
-open minded deeply spiritual non-Texan teaching the children about tolerance

Jennifer said: "the most violent are those WITHOUT tattoos/piercings/etc."

Wrong Jennifer.  Not even close.  Take a look at any prison in the world.  Tattoos everywhere.

Grow up.

 I support the landlord. If I am paying top dollar for apt I don't want to look out at the pool and see a bunch of tattooed, wife beater wearing, lower class types.
 I quit going to Good Time Charlies because of the grotesque facial and neck tattoos on the waitresses there. they looked unclean.

Yes!!! i totally support this...i would love to live in a place that prevents tattooed freaks...unless they are hot chicks, but even then, more than an ankle tatoo and im barfing

i think what this is all about is in california, you have people that literally shave their heads, pierce themselves all over, degrade their body and cover themsleves in tatoos...i mean, gross stuff....also, putting plates in upper lip like the natives do in s. america...so the bottom line is, they are trying to keep these types of folks out...a tatoo under the clothes or a small one in good taste probably isnt what this is about..its the ones that become a freakin walking tattoo...and thats just gross!  i am 22 years old, and am turned off by guys with alot of tatoos...its just not pretty!

Yes!!! i totally support this...i would love to live in a place that prevents tattooed freaks...unless they are hot chicks, but even then, more than an ankle tatoo and im barfing

i think what this is all about is in california, you have people that literally shave their heads, pierce themselves all over, degrade their body and cover themsleves in tatoos...i mean, gross stuff....also, putting plates in upper lip like the natives do in s. america...so the bottom line is, they are trying to keep these types of folks out...a tatoo under the clothes or a small one in good taste probably isnt what this is about..its the ones that become a freakin walking tattoo...and thats just gross!  i am 22 years old, and am turned off by guys with alot of tatoos...its just not pretty!

Jennifer - You speak of the "only way to get rid of that perception" as if there is a mandate to do it.  Who cares?  There is not mandate or calling to "get rid" of any perception.  Get a clue.  Just because you are INTO body art, and consider it a God given right to have them does NOT mean people have to LIKE them.  You are missing the entire point.  Check out the vast majority of these postings.  People who are sick of folks forcing their appearances on others.  There are a LOT of people who simply care about appearances.  The type that would rent these apartments.  The owners have a right to market to their target group. They've made a decision whether you agree with it or not on how to do that.  End of discussion.  Nobody has any requirement to accept your opinions on Body art.  The "difference" is that body are is a choice.  You're not born with it.  If you don't like that people have a negative reaction, you don't have to have it.  And I disagree with your assessment.  The craze over body art and piercings is going to come full circle and the poor sad generation who thought it was such a glorious choice to adorn their bodies with it will wake up decades from now and say "What was I THINKING"????

OK not all conservatives are evil and narrow minded, I am extremely conservative, and proud to be but I love tattoos. I have four and I am about to get a fifth. I work for government and have continue to serve my country in the US Army. I have one very visible tattoo on my upper back, and yes some people at work have an issue with it. Get over it, the older generation is the problem. Its art; an expression of who you are as an individual. Looks like it will take some of us tattooed and pierced folks going to court to get the laws changed to include piercing’s and tattoos as a factor in not discriminating.

If you want art, buy a picture and hang it where I don't have to look at it.  The property belongs to the owners - it is their house - and they should have the right to select those that they want to live there, the same as any individual would select those that they want to come to their home. Yeah for this landlord.  

This is an issue which should end up in the Supreme Court.  
Its simply discrimination.  Those of you who dislike tatoos and piercings and judge people because of them are just like the racists who judged people based on their skin color.   Its a legal form of discrimination but that does not make it right.  

These same people who feel safe discriminating against tatooed people would have been on the side of the racists back when it was acceptable to discriminate against other races.

Jennifer,

Do you want to know why appearance matters?

Because these are HIGH CLASS apartments, with a HIGH CLASS clientele, and tennants with low class looks hurt business.

It's as simple as that.

It's no different from comparing the Dockers and short sleeve white shirt worn by Chevy car salesmen to their 3 piece suit wearing Mercedes counterparts. The higher class you go, the more appearance matters.

Ever heard the expression "clothes make the man"? Skin applies too.


And frankly, getting tattoos and piercings says a lot about the person too. it's not something people who take pride in their appearance normally do.

Conservatism is another word for fascism.

I think my favorite comment by far is the one by Kamarie - that the comments are racist, and also that "for most, getting a tatto is a sacred ritual."

What a load of tripe!  For most?  Maybe for some.

And then my second favorite: the most cliched liberal comment of all (parahrased): "people that don't agree with my point of view are all ignorant bigots and jack asses."  

Kamarie: wake up.  The world is different.  You've apparently been sheltered and surrounded yourself by people that agree with 100% of what you say and think, and when you are confronted with a differing opinion, you resort to ad hominem arguments.  That won't get you far in civilized discourse.  You fail.  Try again.

FlightController said: "The younger generation, those who embrace tattoos for the most part, are paying your social security you ungrateful hermits."

Wrong.  Illiterate, tatooed, body pierced minimum wage losers are NOT funding social security.  If fact, thay don't pay any federal taxes at all.

Put down the pipe.  It's rotting your brain.

Hey Cheryl, I live in SA Texas and I have 12 piercings.  This is ridiculous.  Where exactly are you from that gives you the right to judge an entire state over one apartment complex actions?  

"James L. said:
Conservatism is another word for fascism."

You're deep James.  Deep like a puddle.

Lance: I lol'd at your comment. Yes. I need to take a law class. I have to be at one in 20 minutes, in fact.

I think I know the answer to why this is causing such a thing, though. It's all about perspective.

You see, I live in a highly-educated state. I've always lived in largeish cities (my current one being the smallest, at 250k people). I see tattoos as self-expression. Yes, sometimes they're dumb or ugly, but that's a person's choice. Someone who lives in a city that's smaller, or less affluent, or more afflicted with crime problems, may see someone with tattoos as a thug. Growing up in the home of Harley-Davidson means I got used to seeing most people with tattoos, and realizing that not everyone on a bike is a criminal (hell, Harleys are expensive). If you were one of the people who didn't grow up with as enriching an environment as I, then you clearly would have different views.

Yes, it is fully within the apartment manager's rights to turn down the modded for housing. That's his choice, that's his right as a property owner. Nothing in the 14th Amendment protects those who voluntarily change their bodies from being discriminated against because of that change.

Fortunately, it's also the choice and right of everyone who has mods to bring his ignorance and small-mindedness to light.

Let's see, no constitutional rights have been violated. The apartment complex can set any standard it deems appropriat as long as it does not violate the Fair Housing Act, to include denying an apartment to some clown who parts his hair with a yard rake!

FlightController: I doubt you are paying my social security since your are unemployed or earning minimum wage.

WHAT????

Oh and Tim Kunkel, I do not make minimum wage, I am an Executive at an Oil & Gas Company and I have piercings.  Oh and I used to have pink hair...what's with your attitude?

Flight Controller:  You knock those over 50.  Just who is it that you think built the US to where it is now, who paid for your education, who fought and died for your freedom?  Fortunately most of us won't have to be around to see how those under 50 are destroying our world.  I hope you like living in a 3rd world country because that is what you are allowing it to ecome.  

"Dave said:
This is an issue which should end up in the Supreme Court."

Yes.  Yes it is. This is a perfect way for our government to waste tax dollars on yet another frivolous adolecent "injustice".

Let's see, no constitutional rights have been violated. The apartment complex can set any standard it deems appropriat as long as it does not violate the Fair Housing Act, to include denying an apartment to some clown who parts his hair with a yard rake!

FlightController: I doubt you are paying my social security since your are unemployed or earning minimum wage.

"Having very ostentatious tattoos frequently signifies that the wearer had been in prison once, particularly if there are certain types that are used."

Of the 50 or so people whom I personally know, who have "ostentatious" tattoos - only one has been in jail (NOT prison) - for an unpaid parking ticket that his sister got while driving his car and did not notify him of. Of the many more that I know who do not have tattoos? At least 25 of them have been to jail and/or prison.

Do I know a lot of people who've been in jail and/or prison? Yup. Do any of them have "ostentatious" body art? Only one and it wasn't his fault.

Nice unfounded stereotype you have going on there, Pop Tart :)

I don't understand why people are taking this article out of context.  Most people posting here are formulateing thier own Opioeoin.  Why is it that the people posting(sticking up for people that are inked) are assuming that they were being targeted as having a neg. image?  Paranoid?  No where in the article did it say these people were part of anything.  All it stated was they were denied because they had tattoo's that show.

Which goes on to say that IT IS discrimination!  And as it has been said several times before in these posts, the PRIVATE PROPERTY owner is allowed to discriminate.  RIGHTFULLY SO!!  I know if I own my own piece of this world I would want to have my Freedoms to be able to control it as I wish.  So the apartment complex didn't want these tenets. MOVE ON!  Come' on now, America already wastes to much time on all this B****ing and complaining.

Rachel - I'm from Austin. And I did not judge Texas - I in fact, mocked a woman who did. What is your problem?

Ah, Jenifer.  Your comment encapsulates all that is pathetic with today's left.  Screw a person's right to associate with those he or she choose to and screw a person's right not to associate with those he or she choose not to.  No.  Instead, it is, "We will get a judge to acheive what we are unable to acheive on our own."  Grow up and quit running to mommy and daddy.  

I don't think people tattooed or with body piercing should be thought of as bad exactly but rather more as economically at risk.  Of course they are free to indulge in their self-expression but I would have no interest in conducting any business agreements with them.  Personally when I see someone with tattooes and body piercings I think bad upbringing has led to a self centred view of themselves and their importance to the society around them.

As you can read a lot of these replies indicate violence which is why we try to keep people like this out of our nicer properties.  You can live in our trash properties with the uncarded mex and excons.  Lots of "body art" is an indicator of an anti-social mentality and something you do not want to be arround.  You do not find very many sucessful persons with much of it, but look at the low end Walmart workers and excons.  

Great: Restoring conformity in America one misfit at a time.

Having tattoos and/or piercings is a lifestyle choice. With choices come consequences.

We live in a free country, and people are free to get a tatoo.

But many people, including myself, find tatoos and body piercings absolutely disgusting, and we don't want to be around people who have mutilated their bodies. Tatooed and pierced people are not a legally protected class, and it is perfectly legal to discriminate against them.  Those of use who don't want to be around these folks shouldn't be forced to.

I have no problem with being turned down for a job or being refused housing for NOT having a totoo or being pierced, either. I assume people with tatoos and piercings find folks with squeaky clean skin, short hair and nice clothes just as offensive as we find them. They shouldn't have to put up with us, either.

without considering my 'speeling' , the fact remains that every 'freak' looking individual i have ever met (here and elsewhere ) has had mental , social , ethical , moral , criminal , and drug issues ...
they are not the mainstream of our society ; they choose to deviate from the norm and expect everyone else to accomodate them and their assorted perversions...
i wish there was a way to attach photos here...
i'm sure our vote-desperate liberals will try to make this a 'humanrights' issue to get more of the vermin/criminal underclass involved in their efforts to drag this country down to the level of a thirdworld craphole...
want to be a frea/pervert/degenerate  ?
well , you will have to learn to live with the cost of your choice ...

" Rachel said: "Oh and Tim Kunkel, I do not make minimum wage, I am an Executive at an Oil & Gas Company..."

Ha!  Yeah, right, an OIL Executive, no less.  Should have aimed a little lower, Rachel, your GED diplomma is showing.

Dave, I feel the need to correct you.

This will never make it to the Supreme Court.  Anywhere.  

If it happens (and there is a small chance it may, if taken to court) pass muster in a state district court (where trial court judges are elected and have very wide discretion in their opinions), it will be remanded immediately upon appeal.  If filed in a federal district court (judges not elected, but appointed by president), it will be tossed out.  

There is simply no basis on which to argue discrimination.  The Bill of Rights protects against discrimination by federal actors, and by incorporation, state actors.  There are no state actors here.  The Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution cannot be invoked here, as this private action doesn't affect the "streams of commerce."  Get over it.

For those of you crying about discrimination, I challenge you to construct an argument that would at least pass the laughter/smell test in a high school classroom.  We're not talking about fairness.  We're talking about the law.

A low standard, I know, but I've seen the intelligence level of the people here resorting to ad hominem arguments and attempting to pull the race card out of their pockets.  

Indulge me.

So they still allow rappers and illegals? Frankel sounds jewy to me. Maybe he is a 'suhvivah'. You know how they are about tattoos. Oh well, when the cleansing comes to Texas, we'll be sure to look him up.

Tattoos and ear piercings, shows how very little we have come from the primitive. What next shrunken heads.

Tattoos are an expression of Free Expression.  This is all about the First Amendment.  Let's not follow the gov't down the path of censorship.  After all, censorship is becoming America's favorite past-time.  The US gov't (and their corporate friends), already detain protesters, ban books like "America Deceived"  from Amazon and Wikipedia, shut down Dr. Ron Paul and fire 21-year tenured, BYU physics professor Steven Jones because he proved explosives, thermite in particular, took down the WTC buildings. Free Speech forever (even for tattoos).
Last link (before Google Books caves to pressure and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

Tattoos are for losers.

Norma, you just think you're liberal.  Your thought processes are actually those of a grown up.  Congratulations!

Damb Texas sucks!  America regrets ever stealing it from Mexico.

TIM KUNKEL:

I am a Flight Controller for NASA. I pay taxes. You're just an idiot.

Forgot to mention... RIGHT ON STAN!  Since most people will not ever understand the fact that FREEDOM is a two way street is unfortanate.  

I totally agree with the landlord's rights to do as they want.  If it is a private business, which this is, they should be able to allow who they want to live in their complex.  I have tattoos, however, none that would disqualify me from being a tenant at this complex. (One on upper left bicep, one on each calf.)  However, if they told me that my tattoos made me an unwanted tenant...I'd find a place who didn't mind my tattoos.

The problem with the younger generation (I'm 29..don't know if I qualify here), is the simple fact that all their lives they've been coddled and baby-sat, so they always get what they want.  Grow up and learn to deal with life's unfair rules.  To cry discrimination is ridiculous!  As long as they aren't violating the law, then good for them!  

Wow!  This issue has touched a lot of nerves.  I now realize why my parents, pastor, etc. warned all of us against tattoos and piercings.  I am glad I listened, I hope that my children will listen as well.  When we do things that say to the culture "I am a rebel, I do not follow the norm", we should not be surprised when the culture rejects us.

FlightController:  Stay on the reasonable side, friend, just because older people don't agree with you about tattoos does not make them "ungrateful hermits".  I suspect that when you made the decision to get tattoos, you knew the real price to be paid was more than just money.  We all have our scars to deal with, some are just more visible than others!

I'm still waiting for that shrill cowardly nag to answer me.

It is a good idea.  Most people with tatoos are criminals.

I think it's great. Only trashy people get tattoos. I don't want to live with tattooed freaks and I don't want to know tattooed freaks. A tattoo proclaims to all the world that you are a moronic lemming who doesn't have a mind of your own. Good for these apartment complexes!

It will keep the riff raff out.  Most women with tatoos ar Ho's

Can't we just build a city for the piercing and tattoo crowd?
They can vote for people based on the best tattoo.

I was watching this guy on his hands and knees vomit into a street sewer gutter...as he looked up from a spell of expelling ..I said to him

" Hey yo have some puke chunks on your lips ".. and he said to me  
" No Man , those are lip piercings"

there was this pause at this point in the conversation..then , I  asked him ...
"Have they ever become infected after you puke over them?"

and he looked at me like he had never heard the question before , was about to comment ..but then a wave of puking came over him , so ..I never really got an answer or comment ... ah well ...

Yeah, well free speech doesn't mean that the rest of us must sit in respectful silence. Responses are part of free speech too.

James L.,

Here's the example of fascism you were looking for:

"Stan said: "So they still allow rappers and illegals? Frankel sounds jewy to me. Maybe he is a 'suhvivah'. You know how they are about tattoos. Oh well, when the cleansing comes to Texas, we'll be sure to look him up."

Really nice, Stan.  You're a class act.

Cheryl- Oh I guess I'm overly defensive because people are always downing Texas.  Look at these people!  

Tim K.- I'm smiling right now because I'm making more at 22 than you've made in your life.  Ha ha  And by the way, I graduated at 16 but thanks for trying to make yourself feel better by downtalking me.  Did it work?

Well I'm going to duck out of this conversation because I have to go back to work.  Buh Bye!

It is sad that we are still in such foolish society that equates tatoos with thugs and criminals. Those of you who react so strongly against them (tatoos), have you ever asked yourself why? It reminds me of the fear whites had of blacks, which bred all kinds of atrocities. These people don't want office jobs, "real jobs" or the kind of lifestyle you want. When did that become such a bad thing?

you lot have absolutely no right to judge those with piercings, tattoos or any type of body modification. whether you choose to accept this or not, body modifications are a form of art. just because WE choose to add something to our body definitely does not suddenly mean we are bad people. there are "ghetto gangstas", thugs, "white trash", etc in the world with no tattoos or piercings, but does that mean that they are better people than modded folk? absolutely not.

for the dolts that are unaccepting of body mods, grow up and be open-minded. so what if you can see a piercing or tattoo? big bloody whoop, its not hurting you, don't look at it if you don't want to. tattoos aren't cheap to come by, so don't just automatically assume that we have no jobs, no lives, and no ambition. look around you and really open your eyes to the world around you. look into the history of tattoos - they are significant to specific cultures. cultural groups around the world still follow their ceremonial practices and still modify their bodies. does that make them "criminals, bikers and uneducated people" or any less than the rest of the world?

people decide to get tattoos for many reasons, to stand out and be an individual, to pay respect to a close family member or friend who have passed away, to belong to a group of people, and the list goes on. we have our reasons, just like how you have your reason to dress a certain way, work a certain job and lead a certain life. WE can be successful, as long as we strive to achieve our goals, just like how you tattoo-free folk work your way towards yours. we are all human alike, but choosing to modify our bodies does not make us any less of a person. keep that in mind. success happens to those who work for it regardless of body mods.


bottom line is, stop being ignorant and stop judging.

Have you ever seen prison inmates?  Head to toe with gross tatoos.... When I see someone with a lot of tatoos, I wonder where they did their time.

Hey Ugg Ugg:  we do have a city forthe piercing and tattoo crowd - it's called prison.

Why would anyone deliberately want to look like some convicted felon who was bored into tattoo's so he can look mean and nasty and evil and be more mean nasty filthy and evil than other mean nasty filty evil pieces of crap? What a waste. Yech. I recall an interview on merv griffin in the 60's and he asked the little gay guy- in all the interviews with murderers to write in cold blood, what did they all have in common? And the gay person said, well they all have tattoos.... that was enough for me.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to be in the same group as Mike Tyson? Have you noticed that he is trying to fade his facial desecration?

Poor maintenance of the body means poor Maintenance of the property.

john frink, you're an ignorant tool. you douchebag, how dare you call modded women "hos". grow the *** up

mark all idiots with a visble, unwashable ink, so that everyone else can be aware that these individuals lack sound judgment and tend to make poor decisions

some may display signs of intelligence, but those marked ones will have tendancies for impulsive behavior, while lacking emotional intelligence (i.e. hyper-sensitivity, emotional outbursts, mood swings, depression, etc.)

Britney has a tatoo on her cooter and looked what happened to her

"for the dolts that are unaccepting of body mods, grow up and be open-minded."

"bottom line is, stop being ignorant and stop judging."

You first.

Yeah I dont have a problem with  that, I  they had saved their money instead of buying skin art they might  have money  to buy a home   and not still be renting at 25 years old.
Tattoos are a sign of poor judgment and risky behavior  and though not all tattooed persons are losers a great majority are more trouble than they are  worth.

When I see folks all tatted up I always think to myself...what the %$@!& are thinking! Tattos are ugly to begin with, even uglier when you hit your 50's ha! And besides who rents apartments...oh the folks who spent all their money on tattos and cannot afford to buy a home! Is the term 'full sleeves' some kind of tatto lingo?

Can't wait for the ACLU to come into this situation...it's OK for people to rent apartments to ILLEGALS but it's NOT OK to rent to people with Tattoos ... Soon it will be Not Ok to rent to people because of their hair color ... just wait it's coming....

this is ridiculous and I hope this couple can sue the everyliving crap out of this development

and shame on all of you who support this. .... you'll be feeling this one day, when you're judged on your hair color, whether you have acne, or a mole, and it won't make a case out of race, just because of how you LOOK. It's disgraceful and those who support this type of crap should be heavily taxed moreso than every other american if they want their neighborhoods to be filled with clones. Every person wearing hte same clothing, driving the same car, and looking exactly the same. PATHETIC.

Rachel: "Tim K.- I'm smiling right now because I'm making more at 22 than you've made in your life."

Yes, sweetheart, you are.  Because you're an Oil Executive, aren't you?

Except that as an oil executive (at age 22), your primary duties probably include oiling you boss' back and (uggh!) other pierced parts, doesn't it?

The Constitution guarantees free speech, it does not guarantee that others will accept it or respect it. I say to them, welcome to the real world--where others DO judge you on appearance.

Deep like a puddle.....wow. Did you go to high school? I haven't met one conservative that could articulate a counterpoint to that statement. Telling folks they can't live somewhere because of tattoos? Like I say, what's next, a sexual habits questionnairre? Anything other than horizontal is grounds for disqualification from a good job, a safe place to live? Conservative politics is doing a GREAT job in the world today. I feel tons safer.

Daph- you see it is a respect thing. People who have such little respect for their god given body tend to also have no respect for others. Like their property rights, their rights to life... It is like a gian billboard : I AM A CRIMINAL< LOOK AT ME- and really we do NOT want to look at you. We just want to be far far far away from you tattoo freaks. It is a reflex thing.
Too bad you did not think through all the ramifications of getting all  inked.

I know many people, including myself, who are University of Texas students that are EXTREMELY bright. They take care of their bodies, don't use drugs, don't drink to excess, and for the most part have sound morals. I myself am actually an avid bike rider and runner.

BOB ADAMS: Tattoos DO NOT equal poor maintenance of the body. You sound like a Puritan minister who thinks women shouldn't show their ankles in public. When will people realize that appearance is not the way to ultimately judge a person?

I know plenty of people without tattoos that partake in all of the immoral activities listed here. My favorite part is when one of the Apartment employees says, "Its not discrimination because I'm not against their gender or race." Dude, look up discrimination in the dictionary next time before you open your mouth.

I have apartments for rent and I would generally consider anyone having any tattoos less desirable than an otherwise similar person without tattoos.      

personally, I think my Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering, spotless criminal record, and >800 credit score would count for far more than the fact that I have a couple of tattoos.    What's next? a dress code for the people who live in the apartment complex?   Just because you don't like tattoos and/or piercings is not a valid reason to deny someone rental of an apartment.  

Tattooes are basically art for the Jerry Springer set.  They are offensive to look at much like graffitti is offensive.

I think it's sad that so many people today have to find their life's purpose in tattooes and body piercings while rejecting more traditional themes of family, career and faith.

One way around this type of 'discrimination'. Save your money to buy a home rather than waste it on tatoos !!

DOH !!

  daph:  Yeah you sound like a class act.  You made my point  

I love the hypocrisy of demanding respect from those you belittle.

Frank, buddy!   What are you talking about.  So a few appt. complex's discriminate because they are allowed to.  Your saying this is going to be such a problem that nobody will be able to live anywhere decent?

Comon' now.... where are the rights of the property owner?  PATHETIC.

cheryl - you want me to stop being ignorant, and stop judging? i'm sorry, but i'm part of the modded crowd, i'm a 3rd year university student studying marketing management, pursuing a professional career, i AM open minded and am friends with those with or without tattoos regardless of race. i accept people the way they are.
what exactly do you WANT from me?

I really am appalled at all the negative stereotypes regarding tattoos that people still hold. It is not only "young thugs" that have tattoos. Your fathers and brothers may have them as well. They were incredibly popular in the Navy, even. And looking down on someone the moment you see they have a tattoo may possibly cause you to miss out on someone who has made a difference in many lives.

I am a tattoed scientist that has assisted with major contributions to Alzheimer's Disease research. I am drug free and violence free.

Genuinely good people with tattoos are not a minority anymore. We have families, we own homes, we hold important jobs, and we are loved by those near us.

James L. "Telling folks they can't live somewhere because of tattoos?"

No James.  It's not telling people where they can't live because of tattoos.

It's telling people, "If you look like an anti-social dirt-bag, I don't want you living in MY apartment complex.  I don't want to government to force ME (a property owner) to accept every lost soul on the planet into MY property, where they're going to trash it."

Anybody coming to me to rent one of my apartments who had a tatoo of anything related to death or violence such as a skull or dagger would be immediately rejected.     Feel free to welcome these kind of people into your life or property...I chose not to.

It's the Jews that own the place.  They can't get tatoos.

What the hell is so wrong with tattoos?  That's like saying it's wrong to see two gay people holding hands.  It's their choice!  If you don't like it, don't look idiots!

As for the apartment owner, it's his right.  

Home of the free and the brave.  This is just one more example of liberties slipping away in this country and people feeding into their own fears and predjudices.  S.A. (and Texas for that matter) used to be a tolerant place...not anymore.  I am all for landlord rights, but what ever happened to basic decency and not judging books by their cover?  Stories like this make me feel ashamed to be American.  Shame on you, S.A.  Where is the outrage?

More places should ban tattooed people - hear hear!

You are demanding respect from us while you belittle us and call us names. You are a hypocrite, Daph. It's incredibly easy to tolerate those who agree with you. We all do.

I think the person who owns the apartments ought to have the right to rent to whomever they please, without laws regulating it. PERIOD.

To Out of Context

Whats PATHETIC is the so-called rights of property owners ..... Every person on here, including yourself seems to think that any one with tattoos or piercings is uneducated and a "thug" .... It's a very sad state of the world where individuals like yourself allow discrimination without any justification. There are things called CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECKS. This development didn't want to take the time to check that out as a "RIGHT" of the property owners, instead they took one look at this couple and immediately rejected them, What if they were black? what if they asian? then instead of using a racial discrimination some other ridiculously PATHETIC excuse could be used to deny the couple. That's the sad truth and you know it.

Bottom line:  Most people with tattoos are criminals

It's their apartment complex, they can do what they want.  They CAN and SHOULD judge anyone they want to. The government shouldn't stay out of private property.  

If they want to be bigots, it's their business and the free market will deal with it.

The reason we have lost most of our freedoms is that people whine about being offended and get the government involved in everything.    

YOU do NOT have the right NOT to be offended, so stop whining and open a apartment complex next door that ONLY allows people with Tattoos as tenants.

Bottom line:  Most people with tattoos are criminals

Bottom line:  Most people with tattoos are criminals

Bottom line:  Most people with tattoos are criminals

I don't know why I care, I only have one tattoo on my upper arm. But someone had it right with using background checks instead of appearance. The owners will look awfully silly when a "normal looking" pudgy, clean cut, middle aged tenant molests a kid in those apts. It's rarely the tattoo'd folks who commit those crimes, it's always some dweeby looking fat guy with a tie.

you are a sick, depraved individual. You know very little about "god" and your lack of humanity really has earned you a spot in a nice cell in GITMO. you looser.

I think it's about time someone started cracking down on these rebels! Tattoos and body piercings are dangerous. People have died from infections caused by tongue piercing, and others have contracted diseases from tattoo needles that aren't properly steralized. To call it "body art" is a misnomer. It should be called "body desecration".

You have a choice in getting a tattoo... you can get one... you can also looked upon as a freak or scum by others.  You could have always used the money spent on the ink to get a nice fitting suit.  Wear a suit and you wouldn't have a problem getting the apartment or a job for that matter.  

The fact is, spending your money to have your body modified or inked is your choice but don't expect your choice to be without consequences.  There is a consequence to having a poor fitting suit when you apply for a job... you may not like it but freed for you to get inked should not take away other people's freedom to judge your appearance.

First of all, I don't know any older people who regret getting their tattoos. That's just a dumb, easy, cliche thing to say. It's boring already. Second of all, there are plenty of things that bother me about people but dealing with it is called BEING AN ADULT. Have we all become 5 years old?
Would I be able to ban overly-perfumed women from MY complex? How about people who don't buy nice clothes? I know, I'll ban people who sweat too much! Or maybe just fat people.
Give me a break.

natural skin - so we with any modifications deserve no respect? that's not right. we are NOT freaks, we choose to get a tattoo the same way you choose how to cut your hair, how to dress. it is part of our life. i am pursuing a career in both make-up artistry and marketing management. i am in my 3rd year of studies of university, when did i suddenly become a criminal because of my modifications?

People are free to pierce and tattoo their bodies as much as they please.  And other people are free to refuse to associate with such people.  It's all about freedom of choice.

And it comes down to a quality of life issue.  Apartments can refuse to rent to people with pets.  Apartments can get rid of tenents who play loud music.  I see nothing wrong with apartments also saying that they don't want people with multiple piercings or large visible tattoos.

Interesting how the policy permits a single nose piercing.  I bet a lawyer drafted that to avoid discriminating against South Asians.  I think it's an air-tight and litigation-proof policy.

as as EMP-T with numerous tattoos, and fellow Paramedics with many tattoos,
maybe you dont want our help to save your life!

I wonder if the gentleman with the tattoos went in to get another tattoo and there were two tattoo artists working: One covered in tattoos and another dressed in a suit and tie. Think he might "discriminate" when it comes to his choice of who should give him the tattoo?

Willard!  That's awesome!!!  I agree.  It's true.  A sweaty old fat man with black glasses and tie haha!  

Frank:  You are correct, I am feeling it.  Every day I am judged by my hair color, my acne scars, my moles, my crooked teeth, my mannerisms, etc.  The difference is that tattoos are a CHOICE, and as many have admitted, an outward expression of rebellion.  Naturally, most of society (any society) does not easily trust those individuals who choose to be rebels.  Why does this surprise you?

Those of us who don't like tattoos should be taxed?  Let me turn that around for you:  Why not tax those WITH tattoos at a higher rate?  Sounds unfair doesn't it?

Noel McM said: "what ever happened to basic decency and not judging books by their cover?"

When has that ever been true?  Everyone judges everyone else on their appearance.

Everyone.  And it's not a bad thing, either.  The manner in which we treat our own bodies is an excellent indicator of how we treat the world around us.

I didn't get the haircut, was told I would never go anywhere in the company, and did.  I am now executive in the company and have longer hair and now a long beard!!!!!!  Too bad I probably make more than the people that say get a haircut and get a real job.  You'll find out in life that looks don't make the person.

The truth spoken so eliquently (my spelling sucks I apologize)

But you made a point with is so very true and shows basic humanity and morals. The scum thats made postings on here "judging" each individual is sad and truly pathetic. I truly wonder how many of these idiotic postings are from real criminals as well as high school dropouts(or in many of the postings sen on here, grade school dropouts)

you dont have to have tattoos to be a criminal

Tatoos are gross, and it is the property owners right to regulate who lives in their building.

cheryl  - and it is right for YOU to belittle us and call us names becuase we choose to modify our bodies? you too are a hypocrite, we are not criminals.

john frink - i am by all means NOT a "ho", in fact i am far from it.

What's next red hair and freckles.....................?  How about a certain type of clothing, shoes, vehicles.........................??  Keep it in Tejas pardners....!

superchicken .. go get plucked

Daph:  What is "Make up artistry?"  What community college is offering that great program?

Apartment owners have a business to run. Part of that is maintaining a respectable image and clean housing. People with tattoos and body piercings have an "alternative" and "non-conformist" lifestyle. They don't want to abide by the same things as most society and are not interested in integrating with society. They want to do their own thing and expect everyone else to accept it even if it is not healthy.  Average people see this and want nothing to do with the alternatate crowd. Let these filthy people go find somewhere else to live and keep the apartments clean for respectable people and their children. Yes, I am judging these people and there is nothing wrong with that. If you act like an idiot and look like an idiot, people are going to think you are an idiot. Pretty basic. When you choose to go against the grain of society you should expect consequences. That's life.

Frank,

It just goes to show you are proving my name on these post's correct.  You have taken what I said and twisted incorrectly.  Never once have I said that tattoo'ed people are criminals and thugs.  I would never make such a genearlized statment because it is not true.

If you read carefully, I mearly state the fact that people have the right to allow who they want on thier property (if they are tattoo'ed, nerds, whoever!)

Please be sure not to take things OUT OF CONTEXT.  Bad bad.

Actually, I could understand if the apartment owners were discriminating against Mexicans.  Those filthy buggers shouldn't be allowed to live anywhere except the tee-pees they came from.  

And what about blacks?  Those people scare the living hell out of me.  Thank god I don't live near any of them.  You stupid conservative douchebags need to get a life.  LOOZER!!S!

Shouldn't all that matters is that the applicant can afford the apartment? Doesn't have a crimnal record? Or doesn't do drugs?

I personally have an "office job". My husband has an "office job". Both of us are heavily tattooed. Together we make over 100K a year. Does this unqualify us?

Not everyone with tattoos/peircings is a "thug" or "hooligan".

Whatever happened to not judging a book by it's cover? People need to realize that everyone has tattoos.

Your mom has a tattoo. Your little sister has a tattoo. And so does your neighbor.

"you dont have to have tattoos to be a criminal"

No, I guess you don't.  Appears to be strictly voluntary...

Bunch of maggots.  I wouldn't rent to them either.

Well said, Mr. Clean.

<i>Lex said:
"I know and most tattooed people know that with tattoos we will never be a lawyer, doctor or some CEO in corporate America"

Oh really? I guess I'll have to turn in my law license, then. </sarcasm>
September 25, 2007 3:51 PM</i>
Tell that to all the law schools who've been contacting me begging me to go there because of my scores and top 5% GPA in undergrad.

I'm a professional with a BA, graduated Summa *** Laude from a good university, manager of a staff, and decent religious human being who happens to have a few tattoos and nine earrings (six in one ear, three in the left). I've had no trouble gaining employment or finding housing, but I do find the attitudes of some here disturbing.

What does my aleph tattoo (first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and a highly significant symbol to me) on the inside of my left wrist, or the six earrings in my right ear have to do with my ability to do my job, pay my rent, or otherwise live my life? Does it automatically make me a thug, even though I'm carrying a briefcase and wearing a suit? Does my tattoo automatically make me an "anti-social dirtbag" as one commenter wrote above? Would you stop listening to my ideas in a work meeting because I have a tattoo?

My reasons for my tattoo are many, and many are deeply spiritual. I chose to ink my skin, but that does not make me some dreg of society. Judge people by the content of their character not by the color of their skin, or the designs on it. What happened to open-mindedness?

Certainly the landlord has the right to refuse to rent to these people, but then return their application fee. Fair enough. People can vote with their money and their feet, and private enterprise is private enterprise. That being said, I suspect just as many people will feel the need to NOT seek housing there as choose to seek it because of this policy. Not everyone judges people so harshly on appearance alone.

I would not hire anyone with visible tattoos or excessive facial piercing. It's simply trashy and a lot of us look at you as second class citizens. It's your choice not mine to look like a freak.

The misappropriately named Truth said: "And unfortunately, piercings, gauges, and tatoos will not get you held in high regard.  Mainly because every negative stereotype of all races can be found with some kind of "ART" like this on their body."

Have you ever travelled around the world or are you just bigoted and ignorant in your own little piece of Texas?

Three examples that refute your uninformed nonsense. 1. Maori Warriors have face & body tattoos that tell their life story in symbolism. 2. Roman Centurions had the letters "SPQR" tattooed on their arms as a show of fealty to the republic. 3. Look at a large number of Army & Marine vets and you will see a lot of them have some form of public body ink. IF they are good enough to defend our country, they are good enough to rent an apartment with no trouble, don't you think?

I'm not demanding your respect, Rachel. I don't need it. And I never called anyone with tattoos names. Sorry.

Where the hell does the time go

Someone is impersonating me, and doing a vary pour job of it.  Stupid fashits!

Actually, banning political liberals from your building isn't such a bad idew either.

Ok..If it is a private community then they can do what they wish to do.  If it is a State or Federal funded community then I have a problem with what they are saying to the couple.  If my money goes to discriminating against people that is WRONG!  They should get their money back at the very least

It's private property!  The owners of the apartment complex can legally discriminate against anybody they choose as long as that person does not fall into one of the protected classes under the law; i.e - race, religion, sex, national origin, familial status, or disability.  They aren't saying you can't have tatoos - you can - it's your right to ink if you want.  But they can say they don't want you on their property - basic property rights.  Get over yourselves.  Know the law.  Know your rights.  And don't invent rights because you are offended.  There's no constitutional protection for that!

All you indignant tat wearing executives, highly educated pierced up, sleeve wearing professionals, and highly paid self-mutilated freaks, et. al.

You can take the trash out of the trailer but you can’t take the trailer out of the trash.

This is not a condemnation of this particular couple, but a justified expression of distrust of the entire group of people who need to decorate or mutilate their bodies for some personal reason that is not threatening or because they are thugs and they are threatening.  If you choose to place yourself in that group, then people, particularly business people, have the right to say, "I don't want to run that risk."  The law doesn't permit  businesses to pick and choose. You people who have turned this into an individual discrimination case need to rethink your position.  Those of you who have freaked out over discrimination against all people with excessive body disfigurations don't have a mind with which to rethink your position.

You want a tattoo, get one.  But don't demand everyone view your choice as acceptable.  A landlord or prospective employer doesn't like your choice - GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!  It's not like you won't be able to find housing or employment anywhere else - this is a big country.  I am fed up with people who DEMAND that everyone like them.  Your values may not be mine and vice versa.

"daph said: "Someone is impersonating me, and doing a vary pour job of it.  Stupid fashits!"

Yeah!  They're using 'spell check'!  Something daph would NEVER do!!!

The OUTRAGE!!!

<i> Sergio said:
I would not hire anyone with visible tattoos or excessive facial piercing. It's simply trashy and a lot of us look at you as second class citizens. It's your choice not mine to look like a freak.
September 26, 2007 10:08 AM</i>
My boss thanks you for that. He's told me I'm the best employee he's ever had. Been promoted four times in six years. I'm certainly proud of that accomplishment.

No you don't need tattoos to be a criminal. Many MANY criminals out there are tattooless

And apparently as shown here, people without tattoos seem to be the biggest assholes and jerks on the planet.

sorry - that should be "Daph" instead of "Rachel."

spoken like a true grade school dropout.

You can take Bill Clinton out of Arkansas but you can't take the Arkansas out of Bill Clinton.

I agree with Gene.  It is PRIVATE PROPERTY and the owners should be allowed to set any standards they want, even if that means racial, ethnic, religious, or other discrimination.  Let the market and social pressures prevail.  Bigots will go out of business or else totally isolate themselves.

This is crazy.., all you so called conservatives need to shut up your making me look bad. You are why they use the term fascism is used when they describe us. One more time, Tattoos are an art I am in complete agreement with that, hello do even watch LA ink? Can you do that? Each of my tattoos is very personnel and significant to me, each one represents a part my family and heritage, its like caring around a piece of my ancestors wherever I go. Also to all those people that are calling everyone from the south a redneck, stop it, I am from Georgia, and by saying everyone in Texas with Tattoos is a redneck is just as bad as saying everyone with tattoos is a criminal, so stop buying into negative stereotypes about the south, it’s like me saying everyone from California is a communist.

Bottom line the apart complex was wrong.

 i won't rent to any of you criminals out there.  i live in a single wide trailor near canyon lake,  i want all you tatto thugs to stay away.  i have a tatto,.... but it's picture of my sheep and a American flag......God Bless America.

Go back to Iran and cover your body's with more tatto's.

oh yeah,  GO SPURS GO!

Hey Winston. The law DOES allow hiring discrimination in employment over tatoos. This is not a protected class. If you have a tatoo I don't like, I am not forced to hire you or rent you a place.

<i>   hopleyyeaton said:
I agree with Gene.  It is PRIVATE PROPERTY and the owners should be allowed to set any standards they want, even if that means racial, ethnic, religious, or other discrimination.  Let the market and social pressures prevail.  Bigots will go out of business or else totally isolate themselves.
September 26, 2007 10:13 AM</i>
Exactly. Let these policies see the light of day. I'm just sorry to see so many assume that decent hardworking people are "thugs" and "dirtbags" because they chose to get a tattoo. I thought we were past that in this society, but I guess not.

Companies should be able to pretty much do what they want to do within the law.  Anything else pretty much erodes property rights.  Property rights have already taken a big hit by the abuse of eminent domain.

Here is a link that may be help.  Go with God.

http://Tattooremoval.com

This is the last time I'm addressing anyone on this blog, because it's fairly obvious that many of you are closed-minded bigots who have a lot of life experience you've missed out on. I feel sorry for those of you who have not actually taken the time to get to know people different from yourselves, whether it be the tattooed "freaks" or even your neighbor who is of a different culture than yourself. You're leading very mundane lives and I truly wish nothing but the best for you... it only you can manage to pull yourselves from that big pudding of negativity in which you seem to thrive.

Tim Kunkel:
Your idiocy rears its ugly head again. Did you manage to read the first part of the sentence you were quoting where I stated that of the people I personally know, the most violent are the ones without tattoos/piercings/etc.? Of course you didn't... because you were too busy proving Roman's point that you only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. You, sir, are the one who has a lot of growing up to do.

Conservative Guy:
I don't consider it a God-given right because I'm not Christian (well, that just explains everything doesn't it?)... but I do consider it MY right to choose what to do with my body. If you bothered to scroll up and find my first post, you would see where I acknowledge and respect your right to not like it. You would have also seen that I have my tattoos and piercings not because it's the "cool" thing, but because it's something I enjoy. I'm not a teen-ager and I have a respectable, well-paying career... which I worked hard to attain. So I'm not just some punkass kid running my mouth.

The vast majority of these postings are from ignorant people who thrive on stereotypes to rule their thought processes. I'm not forcing you to get tattoos or piercings - in fact, I frequently (many times daily) encourage young people who want modifications NOT to get them until after they're well into their careers and have established themselves, so that they are not hindered by closed-minded people like the property managers of the apartment complex in question & the "vast majority" of these posters.

Nobody has to accept my opinions, but I respect other people enough to accept their opinions. I don't agree with your opinions, but I respect your right to have them. It's sad that you can't be as mature and accept MY opinions. Accepting someone's opinion doesn't mean that you have to agree with it - just that they have that opinion and that it's a valid opinion. A valid opinion doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct, either, since opinion isn't something that can be right or wrong. What's right for me isn't always right for you and vice versa.

I really hope that people DO stop getting tattoos and piercings without thinking about it long and hard, first. It's the knuckleheads that run out and drunkenly pick some stupid flash off of a wall to get tattooed onto their arm that are usually the "thugs" y'all keep referring to. Those guys with the "tribal" designs, barbed wire around their biceps, or some generic design that hundreds of other people have chosen from a wall... those are the people who you're wanting to fume at. Those of us who have put years of thought & planning into our work and whose work means something significant (more significant than "I just dropped $600 on this sweet clownface on my leg! Check it out dude!")... we're the ones who are usually the professionals, who pay our bills on time, put money aside to pay for quality work, and don't spray paint your mom's garage door.

In fact, that's something else I'd like to address: I've never picked up a spray paint can in my life. I've never vandalized property and it disgusts me when people do. So for everyone who mentioned that tattooed people are more likely to vandalize your property... I'm not sure where you're getting that (other than incorrectly assuming everyone with tattoos is some gangsta thug who needs to mark up his territory). I'm white, in my late 20s, and am considered to be a fairly upstanding citizen by everyone who's met me - and many who haven't, but know who I am. I'm one of the people who works long hours, behind the scenes, to keep your kids safe on the internet. I'm the one who gives a stranger $20 at Wal-Mart, because the guy in front of me was short on money for his kid's diapers and formula. I'm the one who donates time and money to various youth organizations. I do not break the law and I frown on those who do. If you are not a productive member of society, you are not on my good list. Quite the opposite of what many of you think being tattooed means.

And to the person who said that these are high class apartments with high class clientele... I used to work in the property management industry. I know how it works, so thank you for talking down to me like I'm new in the world. You don't have to spell it out for me. This was not a job interview for the couple. This was them attempting to find a new place to call home. Their application had already been received and the fees accepted, based on their credit scores, financial standing, and their initial appearance. They knew how to "dress to impress" - so this isn't a case of that.

Personally, I take great pride in my appearance. I wear nice clothing that flatters my body and doesn't show off the goods. I regularly get pedicures (no need for manicures, as my nails are kept short due to my job needing me to type fast and accurately). I spend a lot of time making sure that my hair is just the right shade of pink and has the perfect cut & style. I've spent top-dollar for my tattoos, to make sure that they're vibrant and that the linework & shading is perfect. I wear eyelets & plugs in my stretched earlobes that match whichever outfit I'm wearing that day and are not garish or offensive. I tuck my septum ring up if I know I'm going to be in the presence of people who may not appreciate it (which is rare, but it does happen). So for you to assume I don't care about my appearance is asinine.

I challenge all of you naysayers to go out and find a few people in their 20s-30s with tattoos and piercings. Keep an open mind and get to know them. See if your attitude changes. Or are you too afraid of people who are not exactly like yourself to be able to reach out to someone different from you?

That's where the problem truly is, as I've already said... your personal insecurities. Please realize that stereotypes don't do favors for anyone - the people being stereotyped or the people throwing them around. When you stereotype, you assume things about people like myself which are completely untrue. You also make yourself look extremely ignorant. Do yourself a favor and get over your preconceived notions about modified people. Sure, there are bad apples, but most of us are honest, decent, caring human beings. Can you non-modified truly say the same about yourselves?

BUY A HOUSE

Then you don't have to subject yourself to this discriminatory rules, and you will pay about the same as rent. Find a broker and let him shop your credit record.. THERE ARE LOANS OUT THERE TO GET YOU OUT OF THIS MESS.

"Jane said: "Oh really? I guess I'll have to turn in my law license, then. </sarcasm>"

Jane, I seriously doubt they're talking about your cuootsey-woosey little, visible-only-to-your-significant-other tattoo.

They're referring to all of the blatantly hostile, rascist, violent, misogynistic tattoos that you see everyday.

Keep getting inked, ladies.  There is no better way for guys to determine at a glance who is a *** and who is not.  Thanks.

I wonder how many of you bleeding heart liberals would feel the same way if the tatoo read "kkk" or "white power" or any other shameful ethnic or racial slurs. Your tats say nothing of the sort, you say? where do you draw the line, then? do you not rent to the person with the profanity tat but DO rent to the guy with the naked woman riding the dragon??? Additionally, would you feel comfortable living downstairs from a man who proudly displays a swastika on his forearm?

The apartment complexes are private property.  The government - any government local, state or Federal - should not be allowed to dictate to a private property owner what the conditions of its use are, unless the owner endangers the public by his actions.  The owner should be allowed to set whatever standards he wants as to whom he rents to, it is his property to do with as he pleases, subject only to putting the public at risk.  Period.

Tim Kunkel said, "Everyone judges everyone else on their appearance. Everyone.  And it's not a bad thing, either.  The manner in which we treat our own bodies is an excellent indicator of how we treat the world around us."

Now Tim, where do you draw the line at judging by appearance? Tattoos? Then what about the Gulf War vet that proudly served his country and wants a place to live, but has a tattoo sleeve of his Uunit, the Flag, etc.? Is this "thuggery"? Is the person mistreating their body when even a large number of WWII vets had tattoos that have meaning?

What about skin colour? Is that a deciding factor for you? Once you make deciding factors things other than 3rd party verifiable facts including criminal record & monetary history, you are sliding down a slippery slope that runs into conflict with the bill of rights. Dr. King said we should judge people not by their skin, but by the content of their character. It's a shame people like you & the owners of the apartment complex (who need to hide behind lawyers) are deaf to those words.

Heather:  Everyone in CA IS a communist.
I am sure you look awesome with all your tattoos.
Do you have some paper bags to finish off your wardrobe?

I would like to sate for teh record that i am half African, German, Indian, HIndi, Buddhist, Dominican, English, ad Austrlian.  So put that in teh ahs hpipe and smoke it u commie morns!  I AM SPRITUATLA PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111oneshift

daph, do you mean Fascist? haha

Judging a book by its cover, this is all this is. I've met plenty of people who wear the 'good guy uniform'. You know, clean cut, slacks, polo shirt. Most of 'em are OK. But some are sleazier and filthier than the biggest tattooed sideshow performer, since that's what tattooed people are, right? But that's assuming tattooed folks are in the sideshow.
Hmmmm. I think I'm digging a HUGE hole for myself in pigeonholing a certain group of people. Just like all kids who wear their pants under their rears showing their undies are in a gang. No, they're not really in a gang, they're posers. They are really good kids underneath it all.
Honestly, how many of your "good guy' folks do you have trouble with paying their rent? Does it really matter that much to you?

Tatoos and multiple piercing that show when normally clothed, show an immaturily that has not been outgrown.  I would not like living next to these people either.

When I was young tattoos were considered dumb.
Just because a lot of people now tattoo themselves I will not change my opinion.
Tattoos are Dumb!
Those that get them are simply sheep. They copy all of the other people that need an attention getting device. The part about art is Toro-Ca Ca.
Do tattooed people have more art on their walls than non tattooed people?
I think not.
It is really sad to see just how many people have such a low self esteem that they need to deface themselves to belong.
The freedom of expression theme is also BS!
If they want to simply express themselves why do they do it exactly like all the other dumbsh*ts?
Every generation feels it has to dress or decorate themselves in a manner that shocks the previous generations. This has been going on for hundreds or years.
Its not art, its not freedom of expression,  Its called a FAD !!!!!
The next generation will move on and those with tattoos will have a permanent  
indication of their mentality to show for the remainder of their lives.

Excessive Tatoos are an indicator of low IQ and self-esteem, that's all. To say that individuals with lower intellect or a backgroud of poverty and single parent family should be banned from living in an apartment complex is ridiculous.

SocialExpert:  you are correct; most tattooed chicks are also excellent fellatrices.

eye liek me tattoos.  i espeshuly liek the "tribal attoos" that my "tribal" white frinds wear.  there so kewl!  all indian and stuff.  and also teh tramp stamps are uberslutty... when i see one on a gurl i just tink "zomgwtfbbqsauce i wanna hit that 315lb skank"

zomg

seriously. we really need to realize that everyone has tattoos. everyone.

and just because you have tattoos or piercings doesn't make you a criminal.

remember when people used to discriminate because of skin color?yeah, same difference.

we are all people here, let's not generalize.

  Tim Kunkel said:
"Jane said: "Oh really? I guess I'll have to turn in my law license, then. </sarcasm>"

Jane, I seriously doubt they're talking about your cuootsey-woosey little, visible-only-to-your-significant-other tattoo.

They're referring to all of the blatantly hostile, rascist, violent, misogynistic tattoos that you see everyday.
September 26, 2007 10:17 AM

It's visible to anyone who can see my left wrist, and I don't wear a burqa. Don't patronize me, either.

I have a friend with a full art nouveau sleeve who is a professor at one of our local universities, another who is a lawyer, and a few who are businessmen and women, all of whom have tattoos that are either highly visible, or visible much of the time.

Where are you seeing all these horrifying tattoos? You must run with a far rougher crowd than I do. Even the harley bikers I know don't have racist, violent, misogynistic tattoos, and from the sounds of it this couple didn't either.

Santa, we all know that's not you.  Behave.  

If a servicemember was denied the ability to rent at the complex based on their tattoos and the tattoos fell within regulations, the military member could press the military to order renting at those properties owned by that individual off limits and pull them all out, based on discriminatory practices.  Depending on how many military members are being rented to, that quick loss of tenants would change his mind.  California (where the complex owners are from) may not be military friendly, but they are dollar friendly, and the military can make them off limits and pull all members out of their properties.

This is still the US.  People can get tattoos if they want... and real estate owners can still decide whom they want as tenants (although property rights unfortunately continue to be abridged).  If you are foolish enough to have yourself tattooed, then you pay the price when a portion of society (including me) considers you a fool!
By the way, anyone foolish enough to have a visible tattoo, is too stupid to work for me.

<i>   Carrie Snark said:
Excessive Tatoos are an indicator of low IQ and self-esteem, that's all. To say that individuals with lower intellect or a backgroud of poverty and single parent family should be banned from living in an apartment complex is ridiculous.
September 26, 2007 10:21 AM</i>
Nice troll. Try not to be so blatent next time.

Everyone has AIDS, too, right Liz?  Methinks you watch too much South Park.

I served 23 years in the land of tatoos, U.S.NAVY!

My observations were that everyone that got a tatoo had to get drunk first!
The second clue, WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE has little or no value.
Third and most important clue - very little or no value for their own PROPERTY (body).
Like sailors study the signs of the sky for clues as to courses and actions to take for their future survival - THE ONLY SIGNS LANDLORDS HAVE TO READ, for THEIR FUTURE SURVIVAL, are what the prospective tenants bring in.
 
Which bring us back to second observation, if wisdom and (or) knowledge had been present - WISDOM would have asked, "WHAT IMPLICATIONS WILL THIS HAVE ON MY FUTURE?  Will my skin be on display as a lamp shade?  Do I want to be more easily identified by the state?"
Knowledge would have spoke up and said, "Remember the wanted posters in the post office - DISCRIPTIONS INCLUDED TATOOS, Remember school history? Didn't Hitler have lamp shades made out of TATOOED SKIN.  Isn't Sue still ticked that her husband has "SHIRLEY" tatooed just below his belly button - after 3 kids and 10 years.

"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves." - Leviticus 19:28

Heather's comments are the direct result of an entire generation's self esteem taking higher priorty over substance and real achievement.  Welcome to the real world - your choices have consequences.

What about a tattoo of a cross on the back of the neck?  What do you people think of that?

Bravo, landlord, bravo!

superchicken said:
"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves." - Leviticus 19:28
September 26, 2007 10:25 AM

Let me put that down with not painting my face,  not mixing meat with milk, and not mixing fabrics.

Oh, and boys, don't spill your seed either.

Next!

It is about time that someone took a stand against the self-mutilation and self-hatred that is exemplified by excessive tatooing and piercing.  It is a form of sight pollution and I believe that a landlord is totally within its rights to have such a policy.  What many people don't understand is that some forms of discrimination are legal.  If a landlord didn't want to rent to people with red cars, the landlord doesn't have to.  There is a famous case used in law school casebooks where a landlord refused to rent an apartment to a black, female lawyer, on the basis that she was a lawyer. She sued. The landlord won because there is no law prohibiting discrimination against lawyers.

God bless everyone, even lawyers and the excessively tatooed and pierced.

Santa said: "Now Tim, where do you draw the line at judging by appearance?"

I'm a war vet, too, and everyone on this blog knows perfectly well that no one cares about an American flag tattoo, or a tweety-bird tattoo, or an "I love ___" tattoo.

They're referring to all of the blatantly hostile (satanic), rascist (KKK), violent (kill the ____"), misogynistic (s**k my___) tattoos that you see everyday.

And "no", Santa. Skin color is NOT a factor.

Legally, the apartment complex has all the right to deny them. Some of you call this discrimination; it is. However, tattoo's are NOT a protected right.

Listen, statistically speaking, individuals with tattoo's tend to have a lower income and commit more crimes. This would be my guess as to why the complex denies these individuals. Increased crime, drugs, late payments, etc.

Believe me when I say, the individual KNEW when they were getting the tattoos, that they would be discriminated against in some way or another. It is completely up to the apartment complex owner.

Because they deny these individuals does not make them racist (ignorant comment).

This is reality.

Bigger Than Yours (not): Obviously more small minded rhetoric coming from your small world view. See the youth in Europe & Asia. Their appearance is not judged. The reason why people "hide" their tattoos at work is the same reason why you do not post your reading list of books, viewing habits onTV/at the movies, and your art collection on your office door. Tattoos like other art is personal expression and not something I would share with my co-workers any more than my political views, personal philosophy, or religious beliefs, we are at work to do a job and generate value. By contrast, we live some place so that we can freely express ourselves in an unfettered atmosphere. To confuse work situations with living situations is folly. There is a difference. If your business is renting, then you have as much right ethically to not rent to someone for their body art as you do to not rent to them because they move in with Picasso or Mapplethorpe or Warhol print. You are slipping down the same slope as 1930's Germany and Italy with your thinking.

   
Mr. Clean you have definitely proven what you say!  

Time for one of your pills, Jane.

No one's worried about your nice little tattoo.

Law student thinks,
Listen, statistically speaking, individuals with tattoo's tend to have a lower income and commit more crimes. This would be my guess as to why the complex denies these individuals. Increased crime, drugs, late payments, etc.

But, has provided no proof other than his own delusions.  Can we get a peer reviewed study please law student????

Some of you are a bit late on the latest news from the military....no more visible tattoos are being allowed on new recruits!

Might want to stop trying to spin the issue about apartment owners rights to set standards with the "military tattoo" maneuver. Besides, it did not work in the first place.

This is America, everybody in this argument has their rights....if you don't like it how about you actually REGISTER TO VOTE and then FOLLOW through with actually voting. Guaranteed that 90% of the angry posters here are not even registered!

What a surprise, the tattooed man once again gets the cold shoulder, and this time it's over a housing situation.  While the apartment complex is busy denying an apartmenet to somehone with tattoos, the clean shaven good guy next door moves in and, for all you know, could be selling heroin out of his apartment.  But, at least he looks nice, so why should it matter.  It makes me wonder what's next.  It UTSA going to deny me an education because I'm tattooed.  The tables should be turned, someone should open an apartment complex that does not rent to people without tattoos.

Publius keeps asking, "What if I discriminated agains Christians?"  Well Publius, that would be ILLEGAL discrimination, because of religious background.  If this apartment complex refused to rent to Christians, they could be sued for discrimination.  If they refused to rent to someone who has tatoos because their religion required it, they could be sued.  But to refuse to rent to soeone who merely chooses to have tatoos is their LEGAL right.

Does being a student of law guarantee narcissism?

Tattoos are generally done to make a statement... usually rebellion but either way a statement.  If people want to make a statement, they shouldn't get upset when people reply.  Getting a tattoo is a choice, it's not like being born a certain way.

If I own a business, it should be up to me who I hire.  If I sell, I have the right to refuse service.  It doesn't matter for what reason, nobody should be forced to do anything for someone else.

Businesses need to be run by the owners, not the government.

Law Student said: "Listen, statistically speaking, individuals with tattoo's tend to have a lower income and commit more crimes. This would be my guess as to why the complex denies these individuals. Increased crime, drugs, late payments, etc."

Really? Please cite the US case studies you are referencing and if they included US armed services personnel. Were the studies done in the last 5 years? Were other studies done that repeated the findings scientifically and in a statistically valid way?

This is the next legal frontier and the ACLU will have you for breakfast if you were to go into court with innuendo rather than referenced facts.

  Tim Kunkel said:
Time for one of your pills, Jane.

No one's worried about your nice little tattoo.
September 26, 2007 10:29 AM

Wow, do you hate all women, or just women who display points-of-view that disagree with your own? Patronizing women and dismissing points is pretty sexist if you ask me, and I don't throw down the sexism card very often.

My point is that prison tattoos are probably 2% of total number of tattoos that exist on bodies in America. Open your mind a little. Oh wait, I'm female. Nevermind.

I work in one of those meccas of "body Art" known as a state prison.  We make an inventory of the "offenders" tatoos for identification purposes.  A few years ago, an arm and a torso were found floaiing in a nearby river.  Photos of the heavily-tatooed body parts were printed in the newspaper to help identify the remains.  I always tell the men that they are doing the community a service by being tatooed because It will speed up the I.D. process when their body is found.  Just as we can thank Bill Clinton for introducing oral sex to school-age children, we can look to Dennis Rodman for making tatoos almost obligatory for the once clean-cut athletes of America.

I think people in Texas are still backwards and need to get over this history of always discriminating against everyone who is not exactly like they "think" they should be. Who gives a crap if someone has a tattoo? They are probably nice people and work hard and pay taxes like the rest of us.

Rent the stupid place, make the landlord money, and let's move on in life to more important issues that actually could negatively impact someones life.

what about me? I have tattoos. they are usually covered. but they are there. on my arms. does this make me a bad person?

not everyone chooses to show their own tattoos to the world. did you know that your boss might have one? or your grandpa? even your lawyer might have one....

And FYI... do you know who has AIDS? No.

(it could be everyone)

I was very bothered by this story at first, but after reading the comments here I altered my opinion a little bit.  I absolutely support people's right to self-expression and the majority of my good friends have some sort of visible body modification.  I would defend their integrity and right to a good life to the ends of the earth.

However, let's be realistic.  If you choose to look deviant, you will be treated accordingly.  The sad truth is, people just don't have time make individual judgements on everyone they meet.  Generalizations are usually based on a grain of truth, even if it's exaggerated (i.e. that all people who have tattoos are thugs or disreputable.)  So the apartment owners wanted only obviously "vanilla" folks living there - okay, then if you have tattoos, find a place that's more accepting.

As for me, I love tattoos and plan to get several more in my life.  But I've made a compromise.  No one sees my tattoos unless I choose to show them; they are not in locations that are visible to the general public.  There are ways to privately express yourself and still have a respectable public appearance.

Hottie said: "Does being a student of law guarantee narcissism?"

Response Jane?

The comments I read conspicuously omit the concept of rights!!! If I work hard all my life and decide to pool my meager savings with 4 other families to invest in some apartments. I have a responsibility to MY family, and the families of my business partners to DISCRIMINATE between tenants to choose the best possible tenants. If there is enough demand to fill the apartments without renting to people that might intimidate PREMIUM tenants, then it is not only my RIGHT to do so, it is my DUTY. On the flipside if my apartment is half full of gangsters and ex-cons this would be a stupid rule that would not make sense.

I, personally, have the experience of living in some crummy places. For a year, I lived next door to a biker brothel that dealt heroin and crack. I have three associations with large-scale tattoos. Ex-cons, Gangsters, Hardcore Party Kids, and wastoid urban hipsters that haven't grown up yet. It is nice of this place to bother to state it in terms of a policy. Most places just look at you and say no thanks without bothering to have a policy. There are many more unwritten rules that are excercised constantly. Missing teeth... Bye! Look like a criminal... See ya! Face covered with bruises... Ta-ta-for-now! Breath smells like liquor... Maybe you should check our East-Central complex.

Anti-discrimination laws exist to protect housing options for very specific protected categories. It is the right and duty of every landlord to discriminate on categories that are not protected in the attempt to find the most stable, considerate, quiet tenants that take excellent care of the units.

Santa, she must be a first year law student...or better yet, maybe a pre-law student.  Good luck on the Bar Law Student.  You have a lot of work ahead of you.

Hey REGGIE and TIM KUNKEL....I know a TON of men and women in my neighboorhood who are COVERED in tatoos.  They are SOLDIERS IN THE US MILITARY!  I am an army wife and some of the most tatooed guy's I've met are giving their lives so you can sit in your comfy chair and spew your stupidity in a free society.  But then again, if you average out their pay, they don't make much more than Minimum Wage anyway, so at least you can feel good about that, huh.

This really unfortunate.. and I cringe at all the "poeple like them" etc comments, I find it really frightening there are still people in the world who think like this. If you ask me it sounds as if we've gone back to the 60s and racism.
As per my personal experience I am a San Antonian currently residing in France. It is sad to say but Europe is a little more advanced on this kind of thing than the United States, piercings are quite common and I remember the first time I saw older ladies with hot pink hair and how surprised I was. No one cares. There is however a level of "business appearance" you would not expect to get a job at a corporation if you showed up in ripped blue jeans and it's the same with tattoos, most people who have tattoos know there is a "time and a place" for things and how to dress appropriately.
The difference is we need to get our heads out of our rear-ends and start thinking. Judging people on appearances is something we are all taught not to do so why would we do it with tattoos or piercings, or cowboys hats or whatever other way people prefer to dress or behave.
In the end I just hope humanity and mostly the United States wakes up from its world of isolation and progresses at the same mental and moral rate as the rest of the world, we aren't stupid so why do we keep doing things that make people think we are?

The reason the Tattoo defenders are so hostile is that they realize they look like thugs.

Tattoos are a sign of a rebellious immature mind. "Tats" are the mark of a loser, regardless of your employment status. Look at the prison population. Examine drug abusers and the bums on the corner. Notice any particular characteristic they share? That's right. Tattoos!

This apartment complex is much more desirable for good, clean hardworking Americans due to their willingness to throw the skanky gangbangers and tat-hoes out. Like they say, a tattoo is a permanent reminder of a temporary emotion. Now you've got to live with the consequences. Go live in the ghetto.

I'm dumbfounded as to why the prospective tenants wanted to live in a place where the status-quo is comfortable, pleated, khakis, a sensible, tucked-in, polo shirt, woven belt, a fanny pack and cell phone clip at the waist.  

Maybe they could open up a special apartment complex for these folks, say something called Freak Land.  I go one step further ... when shopping in department stores etc., I WILL NOT make a purchase if the clerk has piercings or lots of earrings. I try and find the manager and tell him/her why I did not purchase from their store.  This is MY WAY of making a statement.

Musha.a

I support the right for people to tattoo themselves from head to toe ... I also support the right of individuals to run as far away from tattoes as they can possibly get.  

Freedom is a superhighway of choices not a one way street.

Rachelle, please thank your husband for me for his service.

There comes a point between one and 20 tattoos that you start looking more like an ex-con than a stylish hipster dufface that wants to be different by fitting in and getting  a tattoo.  Once you exceed this random number in either style or quantity then its our choice how we react to you.  You only look like a mental dictator when you say I'm supposed to think one thing or another, in this case you demand I treat you as if you were not stupid enough to get a bunch of tattoos.  Thus I admonish you to grow up and accept the consequences of your choices instead of blaming your tattoo problems on other people having small minds.  By the way tattoos are about as hip as fake breasts.  That is to say superficial and a good indicator you are an external person more interested in what other people think than impressing yourself ( with your own behavior )  All really intelligent people I know do not have them.  --------And by the way....a note to American women:  Unless you have Jessica Albas body a tattoo is simply going to make a manly American women and make her look EVEN MORE like a cross gendered sailor.  And just to disabuse you American women are by an large big boned and relatively mannish....so don't do it!

In the final analysis, rightly or wrongly, one is judged by one's appearance and businesses, lessors included, DO have the right to determine with whom they will trade. The only exception being in regards to 'protected classes' - an idea that should be consigned to the dustbin.  If the property owner has certain standards that he wants to enforce (consistently and across the board, of course), that is his right. I wish our landlord did.

Jane, dismissing you point is not sexist, but nice 'quick-draw' with the sexism card.

You and all the well-dressed (and non-renting) white collars miss the point.

This isn't about you.  No one cares about the harmless little tattoo you have (wherever) on your body.  You are not the demographic we're worried about.

If you need some examples, visit some low income or income assisted apartment complexes and you'll quickly see what we ARE referring to.

What about tatooed soldiers from WW2 that got them during their service?  Are they no more than white trash or gangsters?  What about Navy Seals or Army Rangers, known for their distinguished tatoos that they get during or after their service as a reminder of their time in the service?  Or the thousands of service men and women who get tatoos while in the military to commemorate their service to the United States Military?  Are THEY NOT GOOD ENOUGH to live next door TO YOU?

I agree with the policy, those tattooed freaks should be sent to gitmo!

For other similar thinking people come join us at http://www.fredthompsonforum.com

Fred Thompson 2008!!


Woo!

Thank you, Hottie.  I feel that his service, while Untattoed, is worth just as much as the Tatooed soldiers in this world.  

Big John, why does that bother you so much?  Are you scared of people who are very expressive?  I have no body art but it does not bother me in the least.  I'm just curious.  Do you feel the same way about gay people?

First of all I think the requirement should have said "visible tattoos" as there's no way to know where a person has tattoos under clothing.

You can wish the world were different but it is a fact that
people only get a first impression once.  If a complex is filled with heavily tattooed and pierced people, I would look for another complex. One with a better first impression.

At least one of you posters has said you would return to vandalize the property.  I assume you know that you have proven what many think of tattood people and why the complex owners don't want you.

I'm so happy to see this!  I hope it catches on quick everywhere else.  Tattoos, piercings and other "body modifications" were a fad that should have never happened.  Thankfully the new generation has no real interest in them.  I get tired of asking people what tribe they're from when they mention their "tribal" tattoo.  How many thousands have I seen?  What a sick self-destructive fad.

I have rarely met anyone with these things that wasn't an idiot, a screw-up or emo-mess.  Most of them are self-absorbed, illogical, lost losers.  It's way past time we put this sick fad to rest.

I APPLAUD this apartment complex.  Hopefully others will take note and do the same.  

Paris Hilton has mulitple tatoos on her cooter.  She is a ho and ought to be back in jail.

Agreed :)

It is a numbers game. A fairly high percentage of tattooed people think differently than non-tattooed people. Specifically, they tend to be less genteel. So if you owned rental property, what type of thinking would you prefer to have as your renters?

Rachelle said: "they don't make much more than Minimum Wage anyway, so at least you can feel good about that, huh."

Well good heavens, Rachelle.  If you're not making a comfortable living, what in the world are you doing blowing hundreds of dollars on tattoos you don't need?!?

How about advancing a few paygrades before you indulge in such a frivolous expense?

So, if all you "upscale, professional" tatooed people are in such an uproar, why don't you actually DO something about it?  If you have so much status and economic power, go buy the apartment complex & change the policies.  Barring that, buy a different complex and set up the policies the way you like, or perhaps even make a more personal statement and go buy your own house.

In either case, SHUT UP and realize that since you did not take the risk and become the owner(s) of an apartment complex, with its inherent risks and day-to-day problems, you have no standing.  Until you do, you have no logical or legal support for your bitching.  Either do something for yourself or move on.  I'm tired of listening to all the moaning about how you've been victimized.

I think that the troop surge is working.  and I won't pledge to withdraw troops as soon as I'm elected... Iran is still a wildcard - we may be looking at using nuclear weapons on them for the first time in over half a century.

Hillary in 2008, babyyy!

Judgeing people on appearance is normal,  after all isn't that why people get Tats? They are making a statement, if other people don't like your statement...deal with it. There is such a thing as bad art, ever see a velvet painting?To me Tattoos are a sign of bad taste and bad art,money or college degrees has nothing to do with it. It is also a sign of bad judgement, and I would not hire, or want to live with people who's choices are that bad. Not all people with tats are criminals, but it seems most criminals have tats. Keep in mind the rules at that aprtment seem to be about excessive tats, not a few little ugly ones. When you hang around people who all do the same thing, you tend to believe everyone is that way, guess what! Most people do not cover themselfs with graffity, or pierce themselfs into a new species, regardless of age. It's an ugly low class statement, and I have as much right to my opinion as those who like tattoos do. If the OWNERS want to creat a certain atmosphere within the apartments THEY OWN, it trumps your right to make them accept you. Humans reacting to apperance is primevil, and normal. If you tat freaks would be honest, you would admit you are trying to get a reaction on some level, thats why you put them in a place they can be seen, grow up.

It's about time someone maintained a standard for the rest of us in our society.  Like it or not, life has a way of holding us all accountable for our actions.  The action of antisocial behavior - including piercings and tattoos - is almost always met with rejection by society.  But, for an antisocial person, that should be considered an intended, expected and even welcome consequence.  

Hey Tim...got my tattoo IN COLLEGE while my white trash ass was majoring in English Literature.  
Think before you speak.  Nice that you attack on a personal level yet have NOTHING to say in regards to the thousands of tatooed personel out there risking their lives in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Korea.

Losers get tattoos. End of story.

Joe: Yes you may.

My thesis is named "Misconceptions and Social Misunderstandings." It is published on the JSTOR databases and a .pdf can be found in the University of Chicago's graduate library(online).

Tattoo's and crime rates are something I specifically cover. Not to mention, all these statistics are available on at http://www.census.gov/ (United States Census Bureau) incarcerated individuals. It even covers % of the body covered.

Listen, I'm neutral in this debate. I'm a college student and have good friends with full sleeves.

The point of this thread is to justify why the apt complex took an application fee without informing them of personal appearance standards. Not, if you think it's justified.

/done

I think Fred will make a great president and will choose wisely for his judicial nominees.  It's probably a bit late to get stuff like rampant tattoo use back in the closet.

For all the caterwauling about George Bush, in your face liberalism has only marched steadily downward since the 60s.

The end is in sight .. but only because modern liberalism has reached such unimagined epths of depraved thinking it is impossible to go any lower.  A true activist today is a conservative.

I admit to a prejudice against tattoos. I don't care if people get them so long as they don't show. Most people I see with them are definitely from a lower, unrefined class, often missing teeth and smoking. Motorcyclists typify them. I work in a classy office and believe me there are no tats showing. I assume many of my co-workers are tatted but I don't want to see 'em or hear about them.

I certainly would not want to live anywhere near someone that is heavily tatooed, pierced, or otherwise mutilated their body, especially to an excess. Not only is it a sign of some emotional problem(s), but it would also discourage a potential buyer from purchasing  (or renting) my home or another nearby.
Why do these people think that they can behave and act far outside the norm of cilivized society and expect to be treated as the rest of us? They try to look fierce and scary and then are upset when people are afraid of (or disgusted by) them. When we see a correlation between anti-social (or criminal behaviour) and appearance, we (society) reserves the right to take preventative measures to protect ourselves and our property.
BTW, didn't I read a threat in the posts from one of these thugs?

Tatoos identify losers. The quicker in life you learn this the better.   Being discriminating is a good thing.

Rock On.

T

Santa = Satan said: "Santa, we all know that's not you.  Behave."

First of all it is me, Santa. Second of all, I am behaving by standing up for the good little boys & girls in the diverse world before some of you cretinous dolts bring us back to discriminating as far as housing rights based on religion or skin colour as it is supposedly your right to discriminate on any value based on apartments being "PRIVATE PROPERTY". Thirdly, expect some coal in your stocking. Next time, try actually arguing a point rather than using grade school, short bus antics.

The Ironic thing is that had the complex simply refunded the money as the should have, they would not now be the foucs of national news.

Maybe the complex might be getting a new manager soon?

I think it would be hysterical to put all of you who think that Tattooed persons are dangerous in a room with US Soldiers in civilian clothes and not tell you who they were.  You poor, unthinking souls would feel that you were about to be robbed!

If they look like thugs, they will most likely act like thugs.  Also, Tattoos aren't cheap.  It's not difficult to believe that they would rather make tattoo payments than pay the rent.  

Like it or not, people sporting tatoos in our current society are still considered "low class" exhibitionists and are treated accordingly.  Your body is not your own "For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." - 1 Corinthians 6:20 and "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh..., nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord." - Leviticus 19:28.  

Wow!  There's a bunch of hateful people in this world.  The people throwing stones should be looking at themselves and seeing what kind of person they really are.

I am a *** and I have a tatoo in flourescent ink right above my private area.

Rachelle, relax.  No one attacked you.  Take a breath.

You just said he made minimum wage; those are your words, not mine.

No one has disparaged service members.  I think the vast majority of people getting tattoos (the young) would be better served saving their hard-earned money for a house instead of blowing it on tattoos, and then living in som apartment paying rent.

Is that such a radical, hateful comment?

Tim Kunkel said:
Jane, dismissing you point is not sexist, but nice 'quick-draw' with the sexism card.

You and all the well-dressed (and non-renting) white collars miss the point.

This isn't about you.  No one cares about the harmless little tattoo you have (wherever) on your body.  You are not the demographic we're worried about.

If you need some examples, visit some low income or income assisted apartment complexes and you'll quickly see what we ARE referring to.
September 26, 2007 10:42 AM

I grew up poor. My parents were good people, they worked hard but didn't make much. When my dad's company went on strike we did without, and that happened a lot over the years. I was the first person on either side of my family to attend a university. I took advantage of my education, had a full tuition scholarship to cover my undergrad, and I'm applying to law schools. I'm no law student. Yet. I'm an IT professional in my late 30's. I report to a CTO, manage a staff dedicated to e-business and intranet development, and I happen to be a pretty snazzy dresser, yes.

Not all people who were born in my position go onto succeed. If someone dismisses me on the basis that I got a tattoo they're missing all of the positives. I mentor interns here, and I volunteer wherever possible. Tattooed people are just like everyone else. There are assholes in any group. That doesn't make all of us assholes.

Most criminals are covered with tattoos and piercings

Law Student said: "Tattoo's and crime rates are something I specifically cover. Not to mention, all these statistics are available on at http://www.census.gov/ (United States Census Bureau) incarcerated individuals. It even covers % of the body covered."

Yes, I know that study, but it is of a prison population, not a random sampling of a general population, say from thas the in person census surveys of Dubuque Iowa that were cross referenced against criminal records or a voluntary study in New York City based on inidividuals between 18-35 that feature a survey of tattoos as well their possible criminal history. No such random sampling study of a general town population exist that I can find. Therefore, there is no scientific proof to back up some of the bias exhibited on these boards that would be considered hate speech if the subject were not body art but were say Muslims, gays, blacks, or Jews.

The study you cite has as much validity on this topic as a survey in Auschwitz covering the correlation between tattoos and judiaism. Surely you know this, correct?

Wow, this is quite the Pandora's Box! As a Serbian, Croation, German, Irish, Christian, Tattooed, Body Pierced American I can see both sides of the issue with equal clarity. While I may not like what this appartment complex has done, it seems to be their legal right to set policies as they deem fit. I can also agree that right, wrong or otherwise this is indeed discrimination based on one's appreance and not "the content of one's character." I also knew what I was doing when I got my sleeves and knew that some members of society would look down upon me because I chose to be tattooed. That is the individual's choice and quite frankely their loss in not knowing me on a personal level. I am a Sunday School teacher, a devout Episcopalian and a dedicated stay at home father and husband. If, by virtue of the way I look, you choose not to get to know me so be it. I most likely don't want to know you either. Comments welcome @  Tim_price27@hotmail.com  Please include Tattoo or Apartment Complex in your subject line. All God's blessings!

It is OK and sound business to deny people on the basis that they might deter other renters from renting. It used to be that the only people who had garish tattoos were uneducated enlisted Marines, prisoners, and ex-cons.

Why on earth anyone would want to emulate the prison population is beyond me.

I thank god I couldn't tattoo bell-bottoms to my ankles when I was 17. They would look pretty silly now.

I am a 'tattooed freak' and also a CIO. I wear a suit to work. I own a quiant New England Colonial home, make six figures, speak in complete sentences, vote, pay my taxes, and love my Grandma very much. Tattoos, to me, are a creative way of expressing myself.

All these people stating that they advocate the pre-judgement of people with tattoos is just displaying their fear for anything different or out of the ordinary. I would be a miserbale person if I had to fear so much in life.

Tattoos are becoming much more socially acceptable and mainstream. In my office, I do not require anyone to cover visible tattoos if they have them- several of my everyday, good ol' American office clerical workers do.

And you know what? They're wonderful, good people. If I judged them at first glance and shut them out because I caught a glimplse of a tattoo I would be missing out out on some very hard working people.

I hate tattoos on young people especially on guates and spicks!!

Before you get too worked up about discrimination, consider the benefits: Landlords can also refuse to rent based on occupation. They legally can--and many do--refuse to rent to lawyers.

Good for them!  As a former apartment owner, I can tell you that while not ALL tatooed/pierced counter-culture people were a problem, many of them were...far more than the non-body art tenants.  Apartment owners have a right to decide what kind of person they want to reside there as long as it does not violate fair housing laws.   By the way, ever tried to rent an apartment in Manhatten on the upper east side?  If they don't like the way you smile they will reject you.  Not nice,  but not actionable.  The answer?  If you don't like the rules, or you don not fit in,  find another place to live!  Simple.  It is the American Way

I used to live in the fair city, in the 80's. It was a time when many people feared war with Russia, and they lived more "primed for action." Not only did they not waste effort on tattoos, they actually saved a lot of money in transportation costs and drove more practical vehicles.  

Back then, there were far fewer heavily tattooed and body pierced folks. Survival was a bit closer to the heart - even if not acknowledged consciously. Concern about the next day, meant that people had a bit of a more serious outlook on life.

Today, young people, even so-called Baby Boomers in their 50's who have gone off to ride Harleys, forget or don't understand being ready for changes, for an emergency. They have less fear of things, so they are more careless, and don't plan what they do to their bodies, with their finances, with their families.

Being fearless sounds good – a cat that doesn’t fear traffic will end up a dead cat, though. Fearless sounds good until you remember young children without fear are more likely to hurt themselves or be hurt. It sounds good until you remember that the bear without fear will maul and kill park visitors.

Fear is good, when in its proper place. Related to it is what an '80's President called "being prudent." "Being stupid" - with the excess tattoos and piercings - is just that, being stupid. But lately, stupidity seems to have emanated from the top of our Federal government, in all branches. It has worked its way down, all the way down to the little people at the base of the pyramid – the people wearing the tattoos.

Chinese cars enter our market soon; not too soon, we may shut down American-owned car production. Are we as a nation (not just San Antonio) starting to lose it? One thing’s for sure - much of the world IS gaining on us, and we just do slow growth and do not solve our most basic problems.

In 5 years, 10 years, will we have wished that we were more serious about things way back in 2007? Suffering has a strong way of making people see that one's daily bread is more important than making better than tattoos. Those who cannot learn this lesson eventually leave the gene pool!

The comments here really highlight bigotry and plain basic stupidity.  I'd rather live next to someone with tattoos than a stupid person like some of these here.  There's nothing wrong with people that have tattoos, that whole concept is, again, stupid. If that is true, then there is something definitely wrong with people who are "Christians".    At least tattoos don't promote bigotry.  BTW, I don't have tattoos and don't plan on it.  

Pam is  a man

Elsie you make a very good point.  The offensive thing about tattoes is not just to be found in the walking apint-by-number art work on public display but rather what they symbolically say about that person and their view of themselves.  It's a self indulgent statement that exclaims that the self is greater than thy creator .. and about as far from an act of "spirtualism" as one can imagine.

Most of the comments I read on hear are sheer ignorance.  You think someones a thug because they have tattoos?  I'm from Chicago and we have some of the biggest tattoo shops in the nation, and I'd say that at least half of our population has tattoos.  From Managers to CEOs to Salesman.  You don't have to a be a "thug" to have a tattoo, or many tattoo's for that matter.  This is biggest display of "bad management" I've ever seen.  Don't be ignorant, be happy that humans are all unique and different (if we weren't then it'd be a boring place!), and don't bring 'God' into equations that he doesn't need to be in (I'm pointing me finger at some of you).  A tattoo is a tattoo, it doesn't cause hate, bigots like the ones fighting about tattoos on here cause hate.

First of all, the people who respect you will say to your face what the rest of the gutless, condescending pc "feel-gooders" will only whisper about in private.

Unbelievable as it may seem, it appears that some idea of standards hasn't been totally lost in America.  Refreshing.

You undoubtedly have the right to cover youself in a full tribal suit, put a six inch spike through your head, wear your pants around your ankles, and glare out from behind red contacts.  However, the rest of the world doesn't have to surrender the right to its opinion of your "lifestyle" choices.  The last time I looked, the right to free association also included the right NOT to associate.  It seems too many have conveniently forgotten that concept.

Whether white trash or straight out of the hood or bario, there are consequences to your choices.  Welcome to the real world.

Dr. Edward Frankel is a scumbag. Here is a response he received regarding the Americans With Disabilities Act after whining about having to install wheelchair access in one of his slums.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/tal174.txt

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Elsie: Bringing up Leviticus in modern society is silly. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do you combine meat and dairy? Do you fail to devote your entire sabbath to the glory of God? If you answered yes to any of these things, you are also violating the rules set forth in Leviticus. Get real. People pick out stuff from Leviticus & Deuteronomy like offerrings from a Chinese menu, but unfortunately only to oppress other people rather than practice the tennets themselves.

I think its just a bunch of people freaking out over tattoos the popularity will fade but why deny someone a place to live not all people with tattoos are thugs.

I am sick of these kind of stories. What irks me is the notion held by people, esp. young people, that they can never be held accountable for their actions or behaviors. Every decision you make DOES have an impact. Whether or not you think the impact is “fair” is not relevant.  In this case these people choose to heavily tattoo themselves. The apt. complex has likewise chosen certain standards. The two are incompatible. That’s life. Get over it!

Who wants to live with some freaks???  They thinks it's art, the residents think it's a sign of retardation.  The only people that should have Tats are the Marines, Merchant Marines & Sailors!  The rest of you go live in a Circus!

Yes Jane, I suppose that's true; having a tattoo doesn't make you 'bad'.

When you were young & poor, what would you parents have said if you spent meager savings on a unnecessary tattoo?  What would it say about your judgement, maturity and values?

I rightly question the judgement, maturity and values of people who never seem to have the rent money, but somehow (magically) always seem to have money for things like tattoos, cigarettes & booze.

You said, "If someone dismisses me on the basis that I got a tattoo they're missing all of the positives."  Yup, I guess that's true.

I wonder how many positive opportunities you may have missed out on?

Wow, after reading all those comments I'm not even sure where to start. I have 2 tattoos, streached lobes and a septum ring. I am also in my 2nd year of university at one of the top school in Canada. At the end of my 4 years I will come out with my Bachelor of Science and my MRT certification. I got into a competitive program which only accepts 140 people a year. Not to say that going to a good school makes me a good person, but it shows I am certainly not unintelligent and 'trailer trash'. I study hard, I pay my bills, I am a good person regardless of what I look like. Having tattoos does not change you anymore than dying your hair or changing your outfit does. Some people with tattoos are criminals, but some aren't. Some people who have no tattoos are criminals, some aren't. In this day and age you cannot simply judge someone on appearance. Also, to everyone who says they hate looking at tattoos, I say just don't look, I don't care if you like them, I will not force you to look at them. I got them for myself not for you. I cannot wait for the day when everyone gets past what people look like and starts judging eachother on their character, what kind of person they are and how they treat others. Overall I am just disgusted, with non tattooed and tattooed people alike. Everyone stop being so judegmental, stop calling people names, it will not get you anywhere. Lastly, since the apartment complex is private they can decide who lives there, its not the fact that these people were refused tenancy that upsets me, its that the landlord is so obviously judgmental and full of hate which concerns me.

P.S. Its TATTOO not TATOO

You know - we all look at people differently.  

Yes I'm going to give a second glance to someone who is covered in tattoos.  BUT that doesn't mean I think they are thuggish or unable to pay rent.  Or that I'm going to judge them.  

It is discrimination no matter how you look at it.  I don't think it's right that they be judged by how they look.  

Someone said they should ban fat people.  Does this apartment complex have a rule against fat people?  And what is fat?  Someone who is 10 pounds over their "ideal weight" or someone who is 100 pounds over there "ideal weight"?  

Who are we to judge other people based on anything?  

As long as you pay your rent and receive no complaints - WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

That should be the deciding factor!!!  And I thought my apartment complex had issues.  I'm glad I don't live there!!!!!!!!!

Publius, I am amazed that you got all of that blather out of a single nine word sentence.  You truly must be the great genius you proclaim yourself to be.  I confess I could no more get through your entire story any more than I could make it through Mien Kampf, but your heroic effort has not gone unnoticed.

The comments on this page are hilarious. I'm a homegrown Texas girl with a lot of tattoos on my lower arms, as i am working on a full sleeve. I feel discrimintation every day. Lots of ignorant people always associate tattoos with prison and thug life. Couldn't be further from the truth. I have an awesome job in a creative field and make great money, i've never been to prison, and i'm not "white trash" as one of the enlightened people above put it. I sure am glad I OWN my home (yeah, i stayed out of prison long enough to buy a home). this type of DISCRIMINATION, let's call it what it is, is just as inappropriate as any other kind and i see it every day. i get stared at like i have my hair on fire. it's starting to bother me less an less the older i get. People that have NO KNOWLEDGE of tattoo culture and what it signifies other than thug life should not speak on the matter...ever. You have no idea how much it costs to get these things, the pain involved, and many other things, but it's a moot point. Baby boomers are the worst offenders in my case. Intolerant, alcoholic wife beaters or society wives with no spine making assumptions about my social "status" due to my tattoos. Keep on. What are you gonna say to the tattooed person wiping your behind in the old folks home? What about when your child Bethany comes home with a tramp stamp? then what? Most people like me will react unfavorably if ridiculed or snubbed because of tattoos. I had to teach a family at Subway that staring was not polite. I will do it to anyone that is that ignorant. "We don't want white trash and gangsta girls in our apartments", blah blah blah. You should hear what we think about YOU. I've never had trouble finding a job since i've had the same one for 14 years and certainly have never been denied housing due to them. People fear what they don't understand. learn about it, then you'll understand and won't stand cowering when a tattooed person walks by. And to the lady talking about Wal-mart employees, you ever take a gander at the people that SHOP in Wal-mart? I could be mean and say they all look like inbred redneck hicks to me with their inbred redneck children, but i won't. So-called "normal" people are a little dull to me. i can't distinguish you from the 500,000 other people that look just like you. We'll be fine. We have Jobs, we live in houses and have jobs and kids. You better get used to it.

Good for them!  As a former apartment owner, I can tell you that while not ALL tatooed/pierced counter-culture people were a problem, many of them were...far more than the non-body art tenants.  Apartment owners have a right to decide what kind of person they want to reside there as long as it does not violate fair housing laws.   By the way, ever tried to rent an apartment in Manhatten on the upper east side?  If they don't like the way you smile they will reject you.  Not nice,  but not actionable.  The answer?  If you don't like the rules, or you don not fit in,  find another place to live!  Simple.  It is the American Way

i would also like to say that i am an award winning, and published tattoo artist. Why don't you pig-headed, closed-minded, prejudiced individuals on here go to a tattoo convention, you'll see hundreds if not thousands of heavily tattooed people that are not thugs. these conventions are a family event with people bringing there kids. You stupid morons judging everyone are the reason this country is in the shape that it is, incidentally, you people are probably the same reason we elected the village idiot for president......TWICE.  Your stereotypes  and prejudices about tattooed and pierced people are  no better than stereotypes and prejudices against races or homosexuals. We do not ask for your approval, but as humans we deserve the same respect as anyone else, regardless of how we choose to decorate ourselves. All the people on here that stand up for individuality and self expression....keep it up.

1. Anybody has the right to tattoo themselves.

2. Anybody has the right not to associate with people who tattoo themselves.

So it's clear that the apartment complex may refuse to rent to them in the first place. I'm religiously opposed to tattoos. However, it might be both legal and useful to require landlords with such practices to prominently post their requirements in advance so that prospective tenants won't waste their time applying. The entire deposit should have been returned, and it's important to consider the harm that would have resulted had they already given notice to their current apartment. If that had been the case, they should be eligible for damages.

One final thing: this is just another reason for why all people regardless of tattooism should avoid living in apartment complexes like the plague. Having the "right" to move to an apartment complex is like having the "right" to an infectious disease.

Mel J: "I have 2 tattoos, streached lobes and a septum ring."

And your from CANADA?

You're HIRED!!!

To Elsie:  Who cares what a self-appointed prophet of your middle-eastern Bronze-age deity allegedly said?  Do you believe all of that book, or just conveniently chosen portions?  Do you also keep your head covered, avoid mixed-fiber clothing, and stone your children?

As for the apartment owners, they can write their rules pretty much any way they choose, within the confines of the law.  It's a privately-owned business.  But it would be a lot smarter of them to just evaluate each potential tenant with a credit check, and get directly to what's relevant.

Have any of you self proclaimed members of the military read the policies on tattoos etc?  

[Quote, "What about tatooed soldiers from WW2 that got them during their service?  Are they no more than white trash or gangsters?  What about Navy Seals or Army Rangers, known for their distinguished tatoos that they get during or after their service as a reminder of their time in the service?  Or the thousands of service men and women who get tatoos while in the military to commemorate their service to the United States Military?  Are THEY NOT GOOD ENOUGH to live next door TO YOU?
September 26, 2007 10:42 AM" End quote]

One or two service related tattoos per person does not make a nut case - and the majority of WWII servicemen (and maybe zero service women) never got tattoos. Maybe neither sex pierced their tongues! The military at this very moment is struggling with gang-related tattoo issues, and what is "excess" tattoos. You can bet that, should the World War on Terror contract, standards will tighten up - but bodies are needed now, so regulations are loose.  

MizSuicide, your name says it all.

Unstable, unmedicated and self-destructive.

tick-tock-tick-tock....

I can't stand tattoos most often on illegal immigrants.

This is just taking it a little too far. have ANY of you proponents of this ban read a BOOK lately. Tattoos/body modification have been a part of EVERY culture in the world since before even the written word. Whether it be nose rings , tattooes or belly piercings. as for mayorphill,  get a real job??? what kind of remark is that. I will have you Know Mr Mayor that all 50 states require that we ( tattoo artists/piercers) get certified and licensed to Legally practice our trades. Top the rest of you (pros) get a life. This is the same as sayin I wont rent to you because you are Gay, straight, Jewish, Black etc. To some of us, our tattoes are what define who we are as human beings since they represent significant ,defining moments in our lives. People Those of you only find it wrong because you have been indoctrined to see it that way. Have we lost the ability to choose for ourselves what is and isn't right or wrong? Finally He who is without sin cast the first stone. Many of you do way worse things behind closed doors that are worse than body art and modifications. Stop the hypocrisy.

Deviants deviate.  That is why the word deviant exists.  

You have the right to free expression, but so does everybody else.  Feel free to express to your hearts content. But do not curtail somebody elses right to a rebuttal.  

If you choose to do something which is deviant, then be prepared to live the life handed to a deviant.  This is not to say deviation is wrong or bad, but simply people (and most all other life forms) resist change, and in America it is their right to express this disapproval.

Most people get tats "cause they are cool".  They are cool because they are a deviation from the norm, and also are associated with rebellion (ie: the act of deviating) from the norm.  Well fine, you chose to be cool (ie: deviant) by doing something which for all practical purposes, is irreversable. Now live with your choice.

What's the saying: You can't have your cake and eat it too.

BTW, I also would be barred from this complex. But, I chose to permanently mark my body and accept I will be looked at as disgusting by some, yet cool by others.

Santa,

I don't eat shellfish or pork (Biblically unclean) and I don't combine meat and dairy.  I also keep the 7th day Sabbath (from sundown Friday night to sundown Saturday night).  So, go judge yourself, not me.

So the forearm tattoo's that i have had done as memory tats on both forearms are gonna keep me from getting into one of those apt. . Nice, i go and fight for anothers freedom and i can be discreminated against in my own country.

You dumbass ***!

To Anex...so, what? So, you live in France and body piercings are "quite common". And? San Antonio is not France. Your comparison is stupid. The United States is not Europe. Think for a moment and you'll realize how stupid you sound.

I lived in Europe for ten years. Body piercings and large tattoos are not at all "quite common". You're a liar, as well as stupid.

And to all you idiots who profess to be walking canvasses who wish to "carry your art around with you" - you're all idiots, too. No respectable business hires your dumb asses. You can whine all you want in your nasal, liberal tone...but we true Americans hold you in disgust.

We always will.

And I woudn't rent to one of you walking Hepatitis cases, either.

Also, it doesn't matter if one or two of you have real jobs. The vast majority of you DON'T. So, don't pretend. You're scum and there's no way to convince normal people you're not.

Get a life, and a real job. Oh, and shut up.

Case closed.

I own a technology business and I do NOT hire persons with tattoos. PERIOD.   If they have them, they are informed they can remove them if they wish to work at the cutting edge of software development.  Also no other forms of body mutilation are supported, such as noise hooks, eye lash prongs, et al.    The 20ish hip marketing types as well as engineers hired love the policy.  Welcome to freedom of choice and my right to produce an environment of principles and beauty.

For every action, there is a reaction! Remember this in life and your life will be much smoother. I love America. The Doc deservers an at a boy!!!!!!!!!!!

What's next?   No renting to people in baggy jeans and dark skin? While we're at it..   let us throw in the jews, the liberals, the republicans and the blind.  Does it say in the Fair Housing act I can block the blind from renting?